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GandofGand

Influence + Scathing Tirade

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Is there anyway to combine Scathing Tirade and Influence? As far as I can tell both require special actions to use, but not clear on if those take up normal actions or not...looking for a way too boost Scathing Tirade and add the Extra Strain from Influence to drain some serious Strain from enemies...

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This is actually kind of a tricky subject and was debated over. According to a developer's question, the answer is no, but the logic behind the decision wasn't offered. Rereading the rules, the indication is that because activating a talent is a separate action from activating a Force power, the two cannot interact. Unfortunately, this led to more questions, especially regarding talents like Enhanced Leader and powers like Enhance, and how they work. Does this mean Enhance for Piloting cannot be used when performing starship actions like Gain the Advantage? Does this mean Enhanced Leader doesn't work with Field Commander?

There was supposed to be a follow-up question, but I don't know if it was sent or if they ever got a reply.

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Really?

There's a Influence Control Upgrade that says "When you are making a Coercion check..."

Scathing Tirade says make a Coercion check...

AND Supreme Scathing Tirade lets you make the Coercion check as a Maneuver.

How does this all not add up to being able to use the two in conjunction? 

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7 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Really?

There's a Influence Control Upgrade that says "When you are making a Coercion check..."

Scathing Tirade says make a Coercion check...

AND Supreme Scathing Tirade lets you make the Coercion check as a Maneuver.

How does this all not add up to being able to use the two in conjunction? 

Using a force power is an action. Unless the power says otherwise, you still can't use both at the same time. You could maneuver use supreme scathing tirade, then action influence. 

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the actual phrasing that covers this is under the combined check description (I think) note that in this that it calls that when you make a standard skill check, you can add force dice to the roll, the question is that , what is a standard skill check, I have to assume based on the answer that Scathing Tirade isnt and that skill checks called out in a talent are not "Standard" skill checks

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Just now, emsquared said:

Really?

There's a Influence Control Upgrade that says "When you are making a Coercion check..."

Scathing Tirade says make a Coercion check...

AND Supreme Scathing Tirade lets you make the Coercion check as a Maneuver.

How does this all not add up to being able to use the two in conjunction? 

Well, first, because Sam Stewart said they don't.

The general logic that was found is that the book (combat chapter, where it talks about actions) lists activating talents, performing regular skill checks, and activating Force powers all as actions, distinct from one another. You cannot perform more than one action in a turn, let alone stack them on top of each other; ergo, Influence and Scathing Tirade are incompatible.

Regarding this, the there are 1 of 2 possibilities about the Influence control upgrade:

  1. It makes a rules allowance, allowing the PC to perform a regular skill check and a Force power check at the same, but it still doesn't work with talents.
  2. Or, the wording is misleading. Instead of saying "when making a [skill check], may roll an Influence power check as part of the pool...", it should read "when making an Influence power check, may roll a [skill check] as part of the pool..."

But this still leaves unanswered questions regarding those other things I mentioned. Does this mean you cannot use Enhance with piloting checks such as gain the advantage, because those are listed as separate actions? How about Enhanced Leader? Because it is listed as passive, does it work with Field Commander? It was even asked if the "remove setback" talents work with talents or not. I never noticed if those questions were ever answered or not.

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Granted I've never GMed anyone who used Scathing Tirade, and I can obviously see where in a F&D game - where Strain is massively valuable, this could get nasty.

But aren't there a lot worse "exploits" out there, that can yield more disbalanved mechanical results?

I mean obviously it's the intent of the rules that you cannot do this if the devs have said so, but I feel like I'd have a hard time telling a player no on this when it would require so much xp investment, and there's so much worse out there that is "legal".

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"Talents" that provide a skill check are not the action taken per se, they give you the ability to perform a Skill in a new and unique way...so you're not making a "talent Check" But a Skill Check that is allowed by the Talent 

Since there is a "Supreme" Version of Scathing Tirade that specifically reduces that skill check to a Maneuver and Upgrade Influence to work with a Coercion check then if one has reached that pinnacle one could technically do the Scathing Tirade as a Maneuver, add the Upgraded Influence action to the check for no action then take an normal action...like using another force power...8) 

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1 hour ago, GandofGand said:

"Talents" that provide a skill check are not the action taken per se, they give you the ability to perform a Skill in a new and unique way...so you're not making a "talent Check" But a Skill Check that is allowed by the Talent 

Since there is a "Supreme" Version of Scathing Tirade that specifically reduces that skill check to a Maneuver and Upgrade Influence to work with a Coercion check then if one has reached that pinnacle one could technically do the Scathing Tirade as a Maneuver, add the Upgraded Influence action to the check for no action then take an normal action...like using another force power...8) 

The talent is in fact the action you are taking. "The character may take the Scathing Tirade action...". Not the activate a skill action.

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7 hours ago, Deimos119 said:

 

The talent is in fact the action you are taking. "The character may take the Scathing Tirade action...". Not the activate a skill action.

This is what I think also but I think thsy are coming at it from a different angle , in the force chapter, under combined skil checks, it specifically calls out that the "Enhance" type abilities that wdd force dice to skill checks are used when you make a "standard" skill check, while it doesnt define what a standard skill check is , it does follow up wth relevant force powers and talents define when a combined check take place. Given the devs responses skill checks called for in tlent do not benefit from combined checks unless they specifically say they do.

This being said someone with a decent FR can cause way more strain dmg with the influence basic power(along with its upgrades)  than scathing tirade could ever do, and they dont need to rank up coercion to do so 

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11 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:

There was supposed to be a follow-up question, but I don't know if it was sent or if they ever got a reply.

I sent the follow up question twice, never got a response. Guess I could always try again.

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10 hours ago, GandofGand said:

"Talents" that provide a skill check are not the action taken per se, they give you the ability to perform a Skill in a new and unique way...so you're not making a "talent Check" But a Skill Check that is allowed by the Talent

Yeah, pretty much every talent that takes an action calls out that it is a "talent" action. Same for maneuvers. Take "Field Commander" for example: "Take the Field Commander action: [what that entails]". Or any number of other talents. "Once per round, perform the Body Guard maneuver", "Take the Coordinated Assault maneuver", or "Take a Full Throttle action:".

As for the reasoning why it isn't allowed with things like this by RAW? Close as I can tell, it's because things like Enhance and Influence say: "When making an Athletics check, the Force user may roll an Enhance power check as part of the pool" or "the Force user may roll an Influence power check as part of his dice pool" and rolling a Force Power check is called out as its own action. That said, this pretty much spits in the face of Force Leap, however, which has the same wording and then later says it can be used as a maneuver. So I'm not actually sure. In my opinion, the full text only says "when rolling an [X] check" and all talents that say "take this action" and then call for a certain skill specifically say "roll a [difficulty] [skill] check", so it applies.

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You can use influence with Scathing Tirade. However you can only use dark side pips as per the influence power only darkside pips can be used for negative emotions and scathing tirade is all about negative emotions. Enjoy the conflict. Using the force pips as a part of your skill roll does not take a separate action. Same goes for enhance and any other force power that adds to a skill roll. 

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5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You can use influence with Scathing Tirade. However you can only use dark side pips as per the influence power only darkside pips can be used for negative emotions and scathing tirade is all about negative emotions. Enjoy the conflict. Using the force pips as a part of your skill roll does not take a separate action. Same goes for enhance and any other force power that adds to a skill roll. 

It doesn't take a "separate" action in that you'd have to prepare it as one action then take another; rather, I think the "RAW" argument featured earlier around here said something along the lines of "you can only roll Force die w/ a Force power Action, and that Action allows you to roll a basic skill check"; this contrasted it with, say, Scathing Tirade, which is "its own action". I'm not saying I agree, just that this is what I'm pretty sure I've heard making its way around.

As for the "only using dark side pips" bit, the general consensus I've seen is that the particular sidebar calling that out only applies to the Control Upgrade that has you roll an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check to force a target to adopt an emotional state (or believe something untrue), as the sidebar calls out "[w]hen influence is used to guide and shape thoughts and emotions" but then more specifically says "may be used to create negative emotions ... positive emotions ... [and] more neutral emotions." The other Control Upgrade - the one in question for this post - only gives the user "the ability to enhance his arguments and charisma via the Force", and doesn't say anything about creating emotions per se. Of course, every GM is free to GM how they see fit, but I wouldn't say by RAW you're required to do so.

 

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6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You can use influence with Scathing Tirade. However you can only use dark side pips as per the influence power only darkside pips can be used for negative emotions and scathing tirade is all about negative emotions. Enjoy the conflict. Using the force pips as a part of your skill roll does not take a separate action. Same goes for enhance and any other force power that adds to a skill roll. 

If you saw my other post about my GM not using the Morality rules you'd know this isn't actually going to be an issue for me...I'm just trying to see if I could combine the two things to give out mass Stress, without grenades. And the answer is yes; when I get Influence built up and Supreme Scathing Tirade...so question answered.

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9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You can use influence with Scathing Tirade. However you can only use dark side pips as per the influence power only darkside pips can be used for negative emotions and scathing tirade is all about negative emotions. Enjoy the conflict. Using the force pips as a part of your skill roll does not take a separate action. Same goes for enhance and any other force power that adds to a skill roll. 

Not according to the devs who have said the two don't work, when they were asked the question, but no explanation of where this was covered, 2 options exist that we know of, the fact that both need an action, or that scathing tirade isn't a standard skill check 

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9 hours ago, GandofGand said:

If you saw my other post about my GM not using the Morality rules you'd know this isn't actually going to be an issue for me...I'm just trying to see if I could combine the two things to give out mass Stress, without grenades. And the answer is yes; when I get Influence built up and Supreme Scathing Tirade...so question answered.

Still don't work together.  Just because Supreme Scathing Tirade is a maneuver, doesn't make it a standard skill check which is needed to use influence.

 

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10 hours ago, GandofGand said:

If you saw my other post about my GM not using the Morality rules you'd know this isn't actually going to be an issue for me...I'm just trying to see if I could combine the two things to give out mass Stress, without grenades. And the answer is yes; when I get Influence built up and Supreme Scathing Tirade...so question answered.

Honestly not sure why you would want to bother trying to combine the two (beyond being illegal). There is currently no Force User tree that has Scathing Tirade in it, which means you lose out on a FR increase talent. Furthermore, the Range, Magnitude, and Strength upgrades in the Influence tree can be just as effective, if not more in dealing strain to the target(s).

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9 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Honestly not sure why you would want to bother trying to combine the two (beyond being illegal). There is currently no Force User tree that has Scathing Tirade in it, which means you lose out on a FR increase talent. Furthermore, the Range, Magnitude, and Strength upgrades in the Influence tree can be just as effective, if not more in dealing strain to the target(s).

Warden does.

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