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This review of a Netrunner expansion is HUGELY relevant

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53 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

"Whatever happens we have got the Maxim gun and they have not".

A good player with a bad squad can beat a bad player with a good squad. A good player with a bad squad will simply lose to another good player with a good squad. Sometimes the weapons are so asymmetric that player skill simply can't overcome even awful players.

People are going to use the best tools for the job, you cannot blame them for picking what's best. This is why FFG should (continue to) listen to complainers, they want to lessen the impact of simply bringing better tools and having a significant advantage.

But in the RPS game of X-Wing.  A mediocre to poor player with a good squad in the current meta can beat a good player.  We have been saying for sometime that the game can be won in the squad building phase.  There are some really cool builds that may looks good but will just melt against a squad of equal points in today's X-Wing.

You may have a Maxim gun, and your opponent doesn't.  But your gun squad was from WWI Wave 1 and they have a Wave VII regen PWT with guaranteed dice.  Take your best shot while we just remove one of your ships a turn.

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On 4/7/2017 at 1:07 AM, Forgottenlore said:

It takes a lot of work to make a decently balanced scenario (DagobahDave's trench run has been around for, what, 5 years, and they are currently revising it again?)

They are revising it?  How do I get on that mailing list?

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16 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

And, to go back to my first response, are there players out there who only have 5 or 6 ships and could not play in "ship-limited theme events?"  And if they only have a few ships because they are so attuned to the meta, forsaking all the other ships, would those people even want to play in such an event?

Yes, at least in my local area.  We've got new players, or people on very limited incomes who have a starter set plus a handful of ships for the faction (singular) they're collecting.  Heavily restricting what ships people can bring can be a real problem for these players, who may only own 5 or 6 ships total.  And they really don't tend to be the players who are super attuned to the meta.

Plus for some of these players, Rebels and/or the Force Awakens are the Star Wars they identify with.  There's quite a lot of Star Wars fans (particularly younger ones) for whom the crew of the Ghost or Rey, Finn, and Poe are the iconic Star Wars characters.  An "original trilogy only" event could be a massive turn off for them.

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1 hour ago, Jarval said:

Yes, at least in my local area.  We've got new players, or people on very limited incomes who have a starter set plus a handful of ships for the faction (singular) they're collecting.  Heavily restricting what ships people can bring can be a real problem for these players, who may only own 5 or 6 ships total.  And they really don't tend to be the players who are super attuned to the meta.

Plus for some of these players, Rebels and/or the Force Awakens are the Star Wars they identify with.  There's quite a lot of Star Wars fans (particularly younger ones) for whom the crew of the Ghost or Rey, Finn, and Poe are the iconic Star Wars characters.  An "original trilogy only" event could be a massive turn off for them.

So, you're saying that since some people would not be able to participate in this sort of an event, FFG should never organize one because it would be unfair??

And as for the second point, that is the whole idea of fiesta's suggestion!  Promote theme to get players interested.

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1 hour ago, Jarval said:

Yes, at least in my local area.  We've got new players, or people on very limited incomes who have a starter set plus a handful of ships for the faction (singular) they're collecting.  Heavily restricting what ships people can bring can be a real problem for these players, who may only own 5 or 6 ships total.  And they really don't tend to be the players who are super attuned to the meta.

Plus for some of these players, Rebels and/or the Force Awakens are the Star Wars they identify with.  There's quite a lot of Star Wars fans (particularly younger ones) for whom the crew of the Ghost or Rey, Finn, and Poe are the iconic Star Wars characters.  An "original trilogy only" event could be a massive turn off for them.

But they would turn up for a TFA, a R1 or a Rebels-show event, nobody said it would be OT only. Right now we have only 100/6, apart from some non FFG enthusiasts organising other stuff.

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3 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

But in the RPS game of X-Wing.  A mediocre to poor player with a good squad in the current meta can beat a good player.  We have been saying for sometime that the game can be won in the squad building phase.  There are some really cool builds that may looks good but will just melt against a squad of equal points in today's X-Wing.

You may have a Maxim gun, and your opponent doesn't.  But your gun squad was from WWI Wave 1 and they have a Wave VII regen PWT with guaranteed dice.  Take your best shot while we just remove one of your ships a turn.

Bad comparison my friend. 

If you like history, compare the size and armament of third reich army and the french in the early 1940. 

French: more manpower, better armoured tanks with better guns (eg. B1 Char) but with worse maneuvrability, reinforcement from British Expeditionary Force.
Third Reich: less men, worse tanks (faster but sh*tty armour and machineguns, mostly (pz.1 and Pz.2)

Why did the nazis overcame Frensh defenses so easily? Tactics, my dear Watson, tactics is all it takes to win.

French were using Tanks in the old way: Couple of tanks assigned to each infantry formation as a mobile bunker, support. 
Nazis were using Guderian's blitzkrieg doctrine: tanks were operating as a highly mobile strike forces, supported by infantry carried in halftracks and trucks, striking into weak points of enemy lines, capturing bridges, flanking, striking from behind, cutting off supply lines, forcing enemy to surrender or retreat.

Strategy is more important than the squad you fly, I say.

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21 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

But they would turn up for a TFA, a R1 or a Rebels-show event, nobody said it would be OT only. Right now we have only 100/6, apart from some non FFG enthusiasts organising other stuff.

It's possibly just what I've seen, but the vast majority of these type of themed suggestions I've encountered have tended to be "OT only" or "Waves 1-3 only" or things like that.  It's worth keeping in mind that there may be a decent number of newer players who do just have the Force Awakens starter and a few other ships, and that's the limit of their collection.

I'm on board with the idea of events outside of 100/6 - my FLGS is great for that.  We've got monthly X-Wing events, which cycle between standard 100/6, Hangar Bay, and Escalation, alongside some Epic games, HotAC, and a few other bits.  But they tend to be designed in an inclusive way, rather than barring people from taking things.  The closest we've come is the "Joker" tournament we ran at the start of this month, where you had to include a specific ship (HWK for Rebels, Punisher for Imperials, StarViper for Scum) in your list.  The store offered a discount on the ships in question to make it as open to everyone as possible.

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37 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, you're saying that since some people would not be able to participate in this sort of an event, FFG should never organize one because it would be unfair??

The advantage of the standard 100/6 format is that you can show up with whatever you own and play.  You might not do well, but you'll be able to participate.  It's cool that people want to run trench run scenarios, or the Battle of Endor, or attacking the Scarif shield gate, but I don't think it's in FFG's interests to run official events that some of their player/customer base can't participate in.  I think the recent 101 articles are them trying to make the game as accessible as possible, something I wholeheartedly endorse.

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37 minutes ago, Jarval said:

The advantage of the standard 100/6 format is that you can show up with whatever you own and play.  You might not do well, but you'll be able to participate.  It's cool that people want to run trench run scenarios, or the Battle of Endor, or attacking the Scarif shield gate, but I don't think it's in FFG's interests to run official events that some of their player/customer base can't participate in.

This is the crux.  Anyone CAN theoretically participate in Standard, but there's a significant population that does not WANT to, because of the emergent behaviors around Standard.  (also, "anyone can do it" is a questionable premise, since some people do not own 100 points of ships).  FFG is best-served by engaging as many potential customers as possible.  That requires variety.  No single format serves everyone, so mix it up a little!  Some folks will do the Trench Run event, some will do the Standard tourney, and some will do both.

Edited by fiesta0618

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36 minutes ago, Jarval said:

The advantage of the standard 100/6 format is that you can show up with whatever you own and play.  You might not do well, but you'll be able to participate.  It's cool that people want to run trench run scenarios, or the Battle of Endor, or attacking the Scarif shield gate, but I don't think it's in FFG's interests to run official events that some of their player/customer base can't participate in.  I think the recent 101 articles are them trying to make the game as accessible as possible, something I wholeheartedly endorse.

An X-wing Player walks into the FFG ice cream parlor.

XWP:  I want some ice cream.  What flavors do you have?

FFG: Vanilla.

XWP: And what else?

FFG:  Nothing.  Just vanilla.  Everyone likes vanilla.

XWP:  Wow.  I was hoping for chocolate.

FFG:  Well, who says you can't go home and add chocolate.  Then it will be what you want.

XWP:  Hmm.  Can I get a vanilla sundae?

FFG:  No.  We don't make sundaes because not everyone has access to a spoon.

XWP:  Can't you have a $@#* spoons?

FFG:  Listen dude, we've had this shop open for years.  We've never seen anyone eat anything but vanilla. . .why should we provide more?

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54 minutes ago, Voitek said:

Bad comparison my friend. 

[...]

Strategy is more important than the squad you fly, I say.

I wan't trying to compare X-Wing to WWI.  The previous poster did that.   You can see his post on Page 14 if you choose.

It is true that strategy is very important.  So if I understand you right, you are saying that a player limited to Core ships, pilots and upgrade has an equal chance to win against someone who has access to all upgrades, ships and pilots in all waves that have been released.  To be clear, you are saying that an X-Wing, pilot and upgrades available in the Core set is a balanced match against today's, TIE Defenders with Title, TIE Advanced with title and upgrades, TIE Interceptor with PTL and Autothrusters.

Yes strategy is important, but I stand by what I posted earlier.  In the game of X-Wing that we currently have a mediocre to poor player with a good squad in the current meta can beat a good player.  This isn't new;  the game can be won in the squad building phase. 

 

P.S. as for real war.  Wars are often not won on strategy alone and battle sometimes and not won by strategy at all.  Sometimes it is the resources available, over whelming forces or firepower and sometimes it is technological advances.  Heck, sometimes the general just got luck when the other sides line broke.  Didn't Field Marshall Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke once say "no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."?

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9 minutes ago, fiesta0618 said:

FFG is best-served by engaging as many potential customers as possible.  That requires variety.  No single format serves everyone, so mix it up a little!  Some folks will do the Trench Run event, some will do the Standard tourney, and some will do both.

I think other formats would be cool to see, but I'd prefer they didn't come with ship restrictions. Objective based play or missions would both be neat options, but there's no reason you can't do "what if?" situations with Poe heading up the trench run, or similar. :)

Edit: One issue I've encountered is that quite a few of the proposed formats I've seen don't seem to accommodate Scum well if at all. If nothing else, I'd like to make sure all three factions get to play.

Edited by Jarval

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1 minute ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

P.S. as for real war.  Wars are often not won on strategy alone and battle sometimes and not won by strategy at all.  Sometimes it is the resources available, over whelming forces or firepower and sometimes it is technological advances.  Heck, sometimes the general just got luck when the other sides line broke.  Didn't Field Marshall Helmuth Karl Bernhard Graf von Moltke once say "no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."?

Yeah, the version I know (don't remember if that was patton or someone else) was: "even the best plan will be ruined with the first contact with enemy force, but without a plan you are doomed before you even meet the enemy". 

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47 minutes ago, Jarval said:

The advantage of the standard 100/6 format is that you can show up with whatever you own and play.  You might not do well, but you'll be able to participate.  It's cool that people want to run trench run scenarios, or the Battle of Endor, or attacking the Scarif shield gate, but I don't think it's in FFG's interests to run official events that some of their player/customer base can't participate in.  I think the recent 101 articles are them trying to make the game as accessible as possible, something I wholeheartedly endorse.

 

10 minutes ago, fiesta0618 said:

This is the crux.  Anyone CAN theoretically participate in Standard, but there's a significant population that does not WANT to, because of the emergent behaviors around Standard.  (also, "anyone can do it" is a questionable premise, since some people do not own 100 points of ships).  FFG is best-served by engaging as many potential customers as possible.  That requires variety.  No single format serves everyone, so mix it up a little!  Some folks will do the Trench Run event, some will do the Standard tourney, and some will do both.

The other thing is that is really doesn't fully support the game.  I played Epic last night with 6 X-wings.

Unfixed.

Generic.

Non-Biggs.

X-Wings.

Not only did I have a blast, I actually won.

I think the current X-wing is awesome and worth putting on the table in all its forms, unlike 100/6ers.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

 Extended ice cream metaphor

I'm totally on board with FFG offering a wide range of ways to eat your ice cream, complete with prize support and official endorsement. I just don't want events that say "vanilla and chocolate are ok, but no strawberry, sorry strawberry fans!".

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14 minutes ago, Jarval said:

I think other formats would be cool to see, but I'd prefer they didn't come with ship restrictions. Objective based play or missions would both be neat options, but there's no reason you can't do "what if?" situations with Poe heading up the trench run, or similar. :)

Edit: One issue I've encountered is that quite a few of the proposed formats I've seen don't seem to accommodate Scum well if at all. If nothing else, I'd like to make sure all three factions get to play.

It's just because these are spitballs, not well-hashed ideas.  Ship restrictions can be things like:
--Must have exactly 4/5/6 ships
--Small base only
--Large base only
--Large base + 1/2/3 small base
--Must fill all upgrade slots
--Must use no upgrades
--Unique pilots/cards only
--No Uniques of any kind
--OT Only
--TFA Only
--SW: Rebels Only
--"Not appearing in any film" only
--Sienar Systems only
--INCOM only

..

The above represents 30 seconds of thought.  Some favor Scum, some don't.  Some are more restrictive, some less.  A little imagination goes a long way, and careful planning takes it even further.

Edited by fiesta0618

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1 minute ago, Voitek said:

Yeah, the version I know (don't remember if that was patton or someone else) was: "even the best plan will be ruined with the first contact with enemy force, but without a plan you are doomed before you even meet the enemy". 

I couldn't disagree with that.  Even so I doubt that the best planes of the McLaury brothers,  Clanton brothers and Billy Claiborne would be a match for today's special forces.  Even with a good plan.  I know that's an exaggeration but that is my point in squad building in X-Wing which isn't an exaggeration.  Some squads will dominate others even if they are matched in points.  It has been said for years.  I will admit I'm surprised some don't know this after all this time.

 

P.S. McLaury brothers, Clanton brothers and Billy Claiborne is a reference to the shoot out at the OK Corral.  It sounded cooler than saying a bunch of guys with 19th century 6 shooters.

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1 minute ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

I couldn't disagree with that.  Even so I doubt that the best planes of the McLaury brothers,  Clanton brothers and Billy Claiborne would be a match for today's special forces.  Even with a good plan.  I know that's an exaggeration but that is my point in squad building in X-Wing which isn't an exaggeration.  Some squads will dominate others even if they are matched in points.  It has been said for years.  I will admit I'm surprised some don't know this after all this time.

 

P.S. McLaury brothers, Clanton brothers and Billy Claiborne is a reference to the shoot out at the OK Corral.  It sounded cooler than saying a bunch of guys with 19th century 6 shooters.

but the thing is: todays special forces are an example of perfect killing machines. They have everything: years of training, the best personal equipment available, massive staff to coordinate their operations and analyse current situation on flight, ground, naval, aerial and orbital support... in my earlier example, you had a might french army with sh*tty tactics, here you have walking killing machines with the best tactics available. Obviously a bunch of even the greatest warriors of another era would never be a match for them because they would get spotted froma mile with termooptics, lit with lasers and bombed into dust with AC-130 gunship if necessary.

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11 minutes ago, Voitek said:

in my earlier example, you had a might french army with sh*tty tactics, here you have walking killing machines with the best tactics available.

I'm not sure if you're trolling me and I'm just foolish enough to respond?  Sorry I know how that sounds but it wasn't meant as rude.  I told you I never compared X-Wing to real life war.  Another poster did and I responded.  So I still have no idea how your response has anything to do with what I said.  I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make with the rest of your post.

 

Specifically when I was comparing the imbalance in some X-Wing squads you seemed to indicate that any imbalance could be over come by good strategy.  I disagree.  It is my opinion that there are some squads which are simply not competitive in the least sense; even at 100 points versus 100 point there are some builds that stink and no amount of strategy will win the game.  The strategy failed at the squad building phase.  I know that's just my opinion, but I gathered that was the prevailing opinion as well.  You may disagree.

I do hope this clears things up.  I often am not concise or straight forward when I type.  Again, I apologize if I came off to strong or rude.  Thank you for your thoughts but we disagree; I don't know how to explain myself better.  Please do have blessed day.

Edited by Ken at Sunrise
spell'in an grammer

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39 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

There is a thread on here somewhere where they have been discussing it. I lost the followed thread when the forum switched over.

I know it was over at BGG too. I wonder if he keeps that up to date as well.  I should PM him.  He been pretty helpful and some of his missions are very good.

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6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

An X-wing Player walks into the FFG ice cream parlor.

XWP:  I want some ice cream.  What flavors do you have?

FFG: Vanilla.

XWP: And what else?

FFG:  Nothing.  Just vanilla.  Everyone likes vanilla.

XWP:  Wow.  I was hoping for chocolate.

FFG:  Well, who says you can't go home and add chocolate.  Then it will be what you want.

XWP:  Hmm.  Can I get a vanilla sundae?

FFG:  No.  We don't make sundaes because not everyone has access to a spoon.

XWP:  Can't you have a $@#* spoons?

FFG:  Listen dude, we've had this shop open for years.  We've never seen anyone eat anything but vanilla. . .why should we provide more?

A more accurate metaphor using ice cream is:

Shop owner: Hello everyone. We've got dozens of flavors to pick from come and buy what you'd like! We have seats over there that you are free to sit down at and enjoy no matter what flavors you decide to buy.

New guy: Sweet! I would like 1 scoop of vanilla, 2 chocolate and a strawberry!

The new guy heads to a table to sit down.

New guy: Hi guys, I just bought some ice cream can I eat it here with you guys?

Player 1: What've you got there?

The new guy holds out his bowl.

Player 2: Ohhh... sorry you want those tables over there. Today this table is only for people who have 3 chocolates or 2 strawberries.

The new guy looks at them confusion apparent on his once smiling face.

Player 1: But I mean, you are welcome to stay and watch us eat our ice cream!

New guy: Thanks, I guess. I think I am just going to hang out with those guys over there.

Player 2: Well, next week we'll be eating 3 vanillas or 4 chocolates, so come on by then!

The new guy walks over to the other table.

Player 1: He was a nice guy, too bad he didn't want to have the same flavor as us.

Player 2: He'll come around eventually.

 

Now the metaphor is lacking slightly because the 100/6 format limits the number of scoops you can have at a time. However it is still far less restrictive than the other options.

It seems like, just by reading people's success/failures, there isn't a huge audience for what you are suggesting. I could be wrong, and if I am there is a pretty good way to get the support you are looking for: take photos of groups of people playing the way you want, record the number of people doing it, then send it to FFG with a request for support in the future.

If enough people do the same, FFG will see the potential market for it and may decide to sell support material to you guys. You've got to prove that it is worth their time.

Though the severe lack of gunboat may speak to the fact that they don't give a **** about their more dedicated player base either way.

Edited by benbaxter

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1 hour ago, benbaxter said:

 You've got to prove that it is worth their time.

Though the severe lack of gunboat may speak to the fact that they don't give a **** about their more dedicated player base either way.

Well, I have always believed in voting with my wallet.  I have plenty of ships, and they are the iconic ones.  I could just stop buying all the future waves; they will likely add nothing new but meta tweaks.

Yeah, I know: this is always met with "don't let to door hit you in the butt on the way out."

And I would have to agree with the final statement.  Gunboat??  How 'bout a nice scoop of vanilla?

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19 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

I'm not sure if you're trolling me and I'm just foolish enough to respond?  Sorry I know how that sounds but it wasn't meant as rude.  I told you I never compared X-Wing to real life war.  Another poster did and I responded.  So I still have no idea how your response has anything to do with what I said.  I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make with the rest of your post.

 

Specifically when I was comparing the imbalance in some X-Wing squads you seemed to indicate that any imbalance could be over come by good strategy.  I disagree.  It is my opinion that there are some squads which are simply not competitive in the least sense; even at 100 points versus 100 point there are some builds that stink and no amount of strategy will win the game.  The strategy failed at the squad building phase.  I know that's just my opinion, but I gathered that was the prevailing opinion as well.  You may disagree.

I do hope this clears things up.  I often am not concise or straight forward when I type.  Again, I apologize if I came off to strong or rude.  Thank you for your thoughts but we disagree; I don't know how to explain myself better.  Please do have blessed day.

I'm not trolling. I have seen good players, flying with sub-optimal lists, beating top-tier lists with a beter strategy - assuming the top-yier list player is less skilled; less experienced, is making mistakes and generally dont know how to fly his ships.

Yes, I agree, flying OP-list is important if you wat to win. Two players with similar skill, one with meta-dominant list, one with some random casual stuff - the one with better list if probably 75% more likely to win. But that doesnt change the fact, flying skill is more important than list building; because any player can grab a strong list, but not all of them can actually play well enough to be winning tournaments etc. That requires backing strong lists with some actual skill.

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15 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, I have always believed in voting with my wallet.  I have plenty of ships, and they are the iconic ones.  I could just stop buying all the future waves; they will likely add nothing new but meta tweaks.

Yeah, I know: this is always met with "don't let to door hit you in the butt on the way out."

And I would have to agree with the final statement.  Gunboat??  How 'bout a nice scoop of vanilla?

I would save voting with your wallet for things that you can't help change. This is something that you can help change. Start up a league for this type of thing, grow it through the whole community. Maybe start with the official scenarios, so it is at least somewhat structured.  Show them how much people want what you are pitching.

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