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haritos

[Serious request] Give us a balance/feedback subgroup so this very specific group of people spamming nerf threads don't ruin our forum

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This forum was ruined the moment PWT haters were allowed unmitigated access to it.  Now we have a whole slew of mechanic haters constantly moaning about their preferred hate.  

 

That being said, yes!  Let's have a subforum for nerf and fix ideas, that way we can all simply never click on it.  I'd say we could just not click those threads, but when they cover the entirety of the main page some days its a little hard to see why we are even on the forum in the first place.  I have long said that FFG needs to moderate and control content in this, their official channel, otherwise it would soon be so far in the gutter as to be unsalvageable.  Welcome to the gutter!  Can we at least partition the corrupted sectors away from the public eye?  I regularly tell new players to avoid this site and go use the reddit, and I am the "father of xwing" in my community.  There simply was no organized Xwing in my city before I got hooked, so for me to tell newbs to avoid the official site, its pretty embittering.  

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I would really expect the designers to follow the official forum of the game, at least to some extent. The community is decently active and some of the upgrade and mechanic ideas suggested here are actually pretty good. I would asume that quite a few of the players here are experienced gamers and actually do have a decent sense about game design. 

For me, whining versus creativity mostly comes down to tone and entry angle. There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion that a card is unhealthy strong mechanically. If it is overrepresented in the meta, discussing it is a good idea. In the same way, if a ship is abscent in the meta, suggesting changes to bring it back into the meta is also good. If done in a constructive way that is. 

A separate forum may be a good idea, but keep the ideas and fix suggestions flowing. It is an asset, not a liability.

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20 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

Zero backing it up? This whole thread is (supposed to be) about creating a subforum to put all the nerf threads into.

And look at how many people in this thread hate complaining no matter how valid. They just don't want to hear things they disagree with.

Thats what YOU believe. Just like YOU believe the reason that nerf threads are turned into a discussion because people want to silence the other side. Just like YOU believe a subforum for feedback would die, just like YOU believe that people in this and other threads hate complaining no matter how valid, not just bad complaining. Just like YOU believe that people commenting on nerf threads dont want to create worthwhile content. 

Seriously, are you going to try and back that all up? I went into the trouble of pointing out that a s specific subforum would be purely win win, and I raised points that I didnt pull out of my ass. All you gave is assumptions that we re all fascists that dont want to hear the poor whiners whine and we have a secret agenda of punishing by exiling them in a subforum that you claim will be dead based on some advanced predictive algorithm im dying for you to share with us.

 

Edited by haritos

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1 hour ago, Darkcloak said:

This forum was ruined the moment PWT haters were allowed unmitigated access to it.  Now we have a whole slew of mechanic haters constantly moaning about their preferred hate.  

 

That being said, yes!  Let's have a subforum for nerf and fix ideas, that way we can all simply never click on it.  I'd say we could just not click those threads, but when they cover the entirety of the main page some days its a little hard to see why we are even on the forum in the first place.  I have long said that FFG needs to moderate and control content in this, their official channel, otherwise it would soon be so far in the gutter as to be unsalvageable.  Welcome to the gutter!  Can we at least partition the corrupted sectors away from the public eye?  I regularly tell new players to avoid this site and go use the reddit, and I am the "father of xwing" in my community.  There simply was no organized Xwing in my city before I got hooked, so for me to tell newbs to avoid the official site, its pretty embittering.  

What is worse, a bunch of people complaining about PWT's on the official forum, or showing up to a game store and having most others flying PWT's?

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6 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

What is worse, a bunch of people complaining about PWT's on the official forum, or showing up to a game store and having most others flying PWT's?

There is one now!  Note the subliminal message telling you turrets are bad and showing up to a game store where people play them is bad.  

 

There are valid discussions that happen regarding all game mechanics, but the unbridled fury with which some people slam certain ones is childish and disgusting.  If FFG wants their forum to be taken seriously as a repository of knowledge and critical debate then steps need to be taken.  

 

Game Mechanics are not broken.  Players are.

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24 minutes ago, Darkcloak said:

There is one now!  Note the subliminal message telling you turrets are bad and showing up to a game store where people play them is bad.  

 

There are valid discussions that happen regarding all game mechanics, but the unbridled fury with which some people slam certain ones is childish and disgusting.  If FFG wants their forum to be taken seriously as a repository of knowledge and critical debate then steps need to be taken.  

 

Game Mechanics are not broken.  Players are.

If FFG wants their game to be taken seriously as a test of skill and tactics then steps need to be taken.

Game mechanics are broken. Players can only do so much to overcome them.

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11 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

If FFG wants their game to be taken seriously as a test of skill and tactics then steps need to be taken.

Game mechanics are broken. Players can only do so much to overcome them.

I disagree. The game mechanics are not broken. There are a few of them that are very strong and you will be at a disadvantage if you are not prepared for them when flying against them. There are some things that are very strong and meta defining like Miranda/Sabine/Bombs, Mindlink scums and various defender/imp aces builds as well as Scouts 2.0. TLT Y:s remain a factor and Kanan Biggs needs to be handled. But there are very few cards that really stick out. Mindlink is very strong and I am sure that FFG is following them with a very close eye. Biggs ability scewes the game in a way that few other cards do. TLT Y:s is the least skill challenging strong build out there and the TLT is also strong on some other strong builds. But the competitive meta is reasonably health. I would argue that the diversity of the field is very good.

From my angle though, it would be very good if they could find a way to spark life into some of the really unused ships like T65 X-wing, Khiraxz etc. and perhaps also boost jousting a bit. Also in my view, the post movement re-positioning and increase in action economy has changed the game in a way that is not my cup of tea. They made a really great fix in the palp/x7 errata and I suspect they will errata the mindlink pretty soon and then with any luck (and some new upgrades for unused old ships, perhaps creating a new niche for them) we will have an event healthier meta.

If I were to make a suggestion though, I would strongly suggest looking into tournament formats. A lot of the discussions are about the competitive meta and how cards are broken in there. I would suggest for instance to hold tournaments that simply ban just a few cards. How would the game experience change if Mindlink, Push the limit, TLT, Advanced slam, Sabine crew, Biggs, Contracted scout and Miranda was not allowed? Even more far out, how would the game change if max pilot skill allowed was 7? 5?

Take the cards that are considered meta defining and remove them for a format and see if it is more fun to play or more fitting to your playstyle and then suggest that format to FFG. They are smart people and if they want to keep the game as healthy as they can (which also ends up in having more players and selling more products) they most likely will listen. Look at Magics peasant format for inspiration. 

Edited by Ram

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13 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

If FFG wants their game to be taken seriously as a test of skill and tactics then steps need to be taken.

Game mechanics are broken. Players can only do so much to overcome them.

I disagree. The game mechanics are not broken. The game mechanics could be improved, of course, is not perfect, but it's far from broken. Indeed i think that is a very good system although with some failures.

If FFG wants xwing to be taken seriously as a tabletop game of skill and tactics then... well, they are doing pretty good then. The game is in a sweet spot of sales and critics and lots and lots of people play it as a game of skill and tactics, far from be the best in both fields, highly improvable, but a good one. And certainly all their competitors take it **** seriously, because itis eating the market.

Of course, you can dig into the "You can't handle the truth!" speech whenever anyone disagree with you. But Xwing it's a good game, it's globally seen as a good game, and as so is enormously successful.

I could buy a "this aspect of the game could be improved by...", with all the reserves as I say in here. But "the game won't be taken seriously if not..." is an obvious apocalyptic, cataclysmic, over exaggeration.

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9 hours ago, Ram said:

I disagree. The game mechanics are not broken. There are a few of them that are very strong and you will be at a disadvantage if you are not prepared for them when flying against them. There are some things that are very strong and meta defining like Miranda/Sabine/Bombs, Mindlink scums and various defender/imp aces builds as well as Scouts 2.0. TLT Y:s remain a factor and Kanan Biggs needs to be handled. But there are very few cards that really stick out. Mindlink is very strong and I am sure that FFG is following them with a very close eye. Biggs ability scewes the game in a way that few other cards do. TLT Y:s is the least skill challenging strong build out there and the TLT is also strong on some other strong builds. But the competitive meta is reasonably health. I would argue that the diversity of the field is very good.

From my angle though, it would be very good if they could find a way to spark life into some of the really unused ships like T65 X-wing, Khiraxz etc. and perhaps also boost jousting a bit. Also in my view, the post movement re-positioning and increase in action economy has changed the game in a way that is not my cup of tea. They made a really great fix in the palp/x7 errata and I suspect they will errata the mindlink pretty soon and then with any luck (and some new upgrades for unused old ships, perhaps creating a new niche for them) we will have an event healthier meta.

If I were to make a suggestion though, I would strongly suggest looking into tournament formats. A lot of the discussions are about the competitive meta and how cards are broken in there. I would suggest for instance to hold tournaments that simply ban just a few cards. How would the game experience change if Mindlink, Push the limit, TLT, Advanced slam, Sabine crew, Biggs, Contracted scout and Miranda was not allowed? Even more far out, how would the game change if max pilot skill allowed was 7? 5?

Take the cards that are considered meta defining and remove them for a format and see if it is more fun to play or more fitting to your playstyle and then suggest that format to FFG. They are smart people and if they want to keep the game as healthy as they can (which also ends up in having more players and selling more products) they most likely will listen. Look at Magics peasant format for inspiration. 

 

7 hours ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

I disagree. The game mechanics are not broken. The game mechanics could be improved, of course, is not perfect, but it's far from broken. Indeed i think that is a very good system although with some failures.

If FFG wants xwing to be taken seriously as a tabletop game of skill and tactics then... well, they are doing pretty good then. The game is in a sweet spot of sales and critics and lots and lots of people play it as a game of skill and tactics, far from be the best in both fields, highly improvable, but a good one. And certainly all their competitors take it **** seriously, because itis eating the market.

Of course, you can dig into the "You can't handle the truth!" speech whenever anyone disagree with you. But Xwing it's a good game, it's globally seen as a good game, and as so is enormously successful.

I could buy a "this aspect of the game could be improved by...", with all the reserves as I say in here. But "the game won't be taken seriously if not..." is an obvious apocalyptic, cataclysmic, over exaggeration.

I want to clarify that I think the current meta is pretty reasonable. Some things could still be fixed about it, but overall it's pretty good.

My comment was directed more at the PWT apologist that seems to think there was nothing wrong with the wave 5 meta, and that the forums were ruined once PWT haters were allowed on it. His opinion seems to be that all playstyles are equal and that it's just subjective taste which one you happen to like as he's defending a majority fat turret meta which shut out literally everything but fat turrets.

Maybe I'm reading too much into what he said. Regardless, sometimes game mechanics can be broken, and players can only do so much to overcome them without flying them themselves/flying hard counters. Look at fat turrets and phantoms, and the U-Boat meta before Deadeye was nerfed.

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The Crusade to restore sanity is back.

Are people enjoying the Worlds 2017 Nerf Thread Extravaganza? After spotting a "nerf K4 Security Droid" thread I think the only thing missing from the nerfageddon trollers initiative is a kihraxz nerf request.

Lets give these trolls people a home, give them a subforum! 

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27 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Based on what? Yeah, I didn´t think you had anything to back that claim.

It's very hard to give facts that make the claim 'too good' objectively true. So such a debate will never end. The best I can say re: Palpatine is that the card could consistently do more points damage than it would cost to field, according to Majorjuggler.

But "why was a card nerfed" is actually a different question than "was a card too good". A defender with TIE/x7 seemed a bit too good relative to other imperial ships. One can argue that the nerf took away one of the few advantages the imperial faction had, but principally, the goal to make all ships in a faction equally attractive is a good one. To me it looked like x/7 was pushing away other ships. Perhaps the weak performance of imperial lists is a sign that this at least has been corrected.

As for Palpatine, I'm guessing he was restricting design space. If the card was OP (and I think that, from a theoretical perspective, he was), then this was already known for some time, but the actual performance of palpaces lists was not that dominant. But the ability to change any single die every turn after rolling it may very well have been restricting the new abilities of imperials, or it is possible that future crew carriers could not be made too strong in terms of defense, because opponents had to be given a reasonable shot at killing Palpatine. So if you want to know why he was nerfed, I would go looking in that direction rather than at long analyses of past meta.

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I agree so much, however, I do find discussions of the meta very useful especially as I prepare for tournaments.  And Meta discussions and game state feed back discussions are like next door neighbors.  I am not sure how we include the one, while shunting the other off into the subforums.

To demonstrate the distinction:

It is one thing to point out the Jumpmasters with Attanni Mindlink with unhinged astromech are really good how they are going to be a thing at your next tournament is a very different discussion than how Jumpmasters and Attannin Mindlink are broken and how they need to change and how my idea of how to do it is the right one. 

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How it is possible that all the forum topics end up way or another in to nerfing discussion? This was originally request to stop this nonsense that now is going on in the forum. 

 

People are now dedicated to troll every single one of the topics with nerfing tlt's, JM5K's etc.. I think we are in serious need of the subforum to these trolls. I feel like we don't have operator in this forum who would help us in this matter? How we can get the subforum here so we can get in to real conversation of X-Wing?

 

<_< this forum is more broken than any ship or upgrade card in X-Wing at the moment..

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5 minutes ago, Zazaa said:

How it is possible that all the forum topics end up way or another in to nerfing discussion?

Based on previous experiences, forum users consider it a possibility that the next FAQ will clear up their pet peeve. The previous corrections have given rise to the idea that the game's rules are open to debate.

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4 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

Based on previous experiences, forum users consider it a possibility that the next FAQ will clear up their pet peeve. The previous corrections have given rise to the idea that the game's rules are open to debate.

Or people are just having fun.

Y'know, just throwing that out there.

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Well, not so long ago constant moaning get them this precious Palpatine nerf - thus army of whiners started to think anything can get nerfed, you just have to point out enough times what is "broken" in this game.
From that point on, true whinefest begun.

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