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[Serious request] Give us a balance/feedback subgroup so this very specific group of people spamming nerf threads don't ruin our forum

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Just now, Johen Dood said:

Well, you know, except the flood of Mindlink Triple U-Boats we just saw in the post FAQ meta. But I get your point.

That build is of a reasonable power level now and it's not super prevalent to my knowledge. IMO it's less of a problem for the game than something like Miranda Dash.

But if you created a thread about it, I wouldn't get mad that it wasn't shoved off into some dead subforum where it would get a handful of replies and die.

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9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Personally, I would like to see all redesigning of current components threads go away.  No meta, no recosting, no nerf, no buff.

Ideas for new cards and titles are fun and creative topics; discussion of gameplay is what we should be doing.

Leave the designing to the designers.  If you have a new idea that's yours, share it.  But if it already in the game, it's a done deal.  Talk about how to defeat it, not how to redesign it.

Hear that everyone? You're no doing what you should be doing! You're using the forum wrong!

The "solution" to this "problem" isn't to shunt the people/discussions i to a never used subforum so you don't have to see it isn't the solution, but the solution has been posted already. Don't engage with the threads you dislike. Post better, more engaging content that displaces the threads you don't like. Simple. Don't try to force your opinion about what others should be posting or not posting on them. As long as it's within the forum rules and relevant to X Wing, they have the same right to discuss what they want as anyone else.

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7 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

Hear that everyone? You're no doing what you should be doing! You're using the forum wrong!

The "solution" to this "problem" isn't to shunt the people/discussions i to a never used subforum so you don't have to see it isn't the solution, but the solution has been posted already. Don't engage with the threads you dislike. Post better, more engaging content that displaces the threads you don't like. Simple. Don't try to force your opinion about what others should be posting or not posting on them. As long as it's within the forum rules and relevant to X Wing, they have the same right to discuss what they want as anyone else.

But wouldn't it be better if we silenced dissenting views?

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I think what we all need to do is pray for a Jedi interceptor and Assault Gunboat release ASAP and take a day, week, month off the forums if the topics that you don't need to click on if you don't like them are that angering to you 

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57 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Like telling people who don't want to have the repeated nerf discussions they're oppressing you? 

Oppression? Like shoving all discussions you don't like into some dead subforum?

If you don't agree with a thread, argue against it. If you don't want to participate in them, then don't. This forum pushes active threads up to the top of the page. Like someone else in this thread said, go to a thread you like and participate in that one and it will get bumped.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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It is a fine line with legitimate complaints and whining. 

My biggest problem with these threads is the meta has not even got a chance to settle in, before people started complaining about               being too powerful. After a couple months play, sure, why not. It has not even begun to balance itself out. (Personally, I enjoyed the meta right before the hard nerfs of the last FAQ. I am glad about the Heavy Scyk though, it did need a buff.)

I do enjoy "idea" threads, and seeing how people would buff ships and pilots. (Some ships really do need help ...) I do not want to see those go away.

There is an issue with Red Dice creep going on, (cloaking needs a buff, perhaps an extra defense die while cloaked), but as it stands, the meta is fairly stable, and nothing that people have not seen before. So, yes the NERF threads are annoying, but I do think they will go away once the meta sinks in a little.

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8 hours ago, Turbo Toker said:

How else is FFG supposed to fix the game?

If you nerf things that people don't like, that's good for the game.

See, here is one of those people I was just talking about. They consider not liking something as an invalid reason to nerf something. How convenient. So therefore nothing can ever be wrong with the game, because all the complaints can be brushed aside as invalid subjective taste.

Hey, you thinking Palp and x7 don't ruin the game is just subjective taste too. Guess we should nerf them. Just because you like how something works is not a reason to ask for the game to be kept the same

Not liking something is an invalid reason to ask for a nerf! Are you a game designer? How many games have you had published? 

I'm not a game designer. I'm not privy to the design concepts that X-Wing is based on. Things that are "broken" in this game will get fixed. Not from people crabbing about it but with an analytical eye focused on game balance. 

TLTs are a pain in ths arse to play against. Against some builds, they just murder them. They basically melt against others. If they are so over powered and broken why aren't 4 Y-Wing TLT builds in every top 8 of every Open or at Worlds? Because they are not broken and people have learned to fly against them.

Palpatine was annoying as originally released. Holding back his ability until you were absolutely positive it was needed was a little too good.

R3A2 is a unique droid. Only one. Coupled with the BTL-A4 and a TLT it is a good way to put an end to some arc dodgers if you can get them in your primary firing arc. Ships that can take a turret aren't exactly rolling in green maneuvers. With one agility they aren't too hard to kill. 

I like the game of X-Wing. Do I like all the mechanics or builds or upgrade cards? No. Just because I like the game and don't whine about certain aspects of the game doesn't mean I don't want things to change. I'm smart enough to know that the designers keep tabs on how the game is progressing and it's not by listening to the groans on these threads. If, and it's a big if, they see something is out of balance it will corrected. Obviously TLTs don't appear to be a problem since they are releasing another ship that can take them.

I'm not implying that people's opinions aren't important, but most of these nerf threads come across as sour grape complaints. You put in a lot of time theory crafting a build and more time playtesting it only to see it picked apart by an off the wall build by some guy at the FLGS. It hurts. This was your baby. Your pride and joy, that you raised from an idea and it got squashed. And this happens several more times. Rather than analyzing the loss the complaints start.

Another thing to consider is the number of players far exceeds the limited number that post here. Assuredly, there are more players out there that don't like some game mechanics and are silent or, like me, will wait for FFG to fix it. 

Please note that the "you" in the above comments was the editorial you and not YOU personally.

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7 hours ago, Crabbok said:

I don't have any problem with all the nerf posts.  I tend to ignore post of them.  I only read the threads I find interesting.   It seems to me, that alot of people insist on reading threads they don't find interesting - and then complain about them.   I would suggest simply to ignore the nerf posts and instead, populate this forum with threads that you want to see.  

If you want to talk about what ships you want to see next, start a thread on that, (or reply if there's already one).   If you want to talk about Paul Heaver's latest list... talk, then get that discussion going....   but there's not much sense in dwelling on the threads that you don't like.  

Sublime words of wisdom. Like I said before Nerf threads are the WET PAINT sign on the park benches. You just gotta touch them.

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58 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

TLTs are a pain in ths arse to play against. Against some builds, they just murder them. They basically melt against others. If they are so over powered and broken why aren't 4 Y-Wing TLT builds in every top 8 of every Open or at Worlds? Because they are not broken and people have learned to fly against them.

Palpatine was annoying as originally released. Holding back his ability until you were absolutely positive it was needed was a little too good.

 

Funny that you mentiont that TLT´s were not in the top builds but ignore that same fact for Palpatine builds and only state that he was "too good".

No, he was not. You´re just trying to agree now with FFG and of course it´s easy thing to do after the nerf.

I agree with you on the part that not liking something is not a reason to nerf them. That is exactly what happened with Palpatine. I hate TLT´s, but have learned to beat them. Some build will always be stronger than others. That´s no reason to nerf everything which is played more at the top.

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1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

Not liking something is an invalid reason to ask for a nerf! Are you a game designer? How many games have you had published? 

I'm not a game designer. I'm not privy to the design concepts that X-Wing is based on. Things that are "broken" in this game will get fixed. Not from people crabbing about it but with an analytical eye focused on game balance. 

TLTs are a pain in ths arse to play against. Against some builds, they just murder them. They basically melt against others. If they are so over powered and broken why aren't 4 Y-Wing TLT builds in every top 8 of every Open or at Worlds? Because they are not broken and people have learned to fly against them.

Palpatine was annoying as originally released. Holding back his ability until you were absolutely positive it was needed was a little too good.

R3A2 is a unique droid. Only one. Coupled with the BTL-A4 and a TLT it is a good way to put an end to some arc dodgers if you can get them in your primary firing arc. Ships that can take a turret aren't exactly rolling in green maneuvers. With one agility they aren't too hard to kill. 

I like the game of X-Wing. Do I like all the mechanics or builds or upgrade cards? No. Just because I like the game and don't whine about certain aspects of the game doesn't mean I don't want things to change. I'm smart enough to know that the designers keep tabs on how the game is progressing and it's not by listening to the groans on these threads. If, and it's a big if, they see something is out of balance it will corrected. Obviously TLTs don't appear to be a problem since they are releasing another ship that can take them.

I'm not implying that people's opinions aren't important, but most of these nerf threads come across as sour grape complaints. You put in a lot of time theory crafting a build and more time playtesting it only to see it picked apart by an off the wall build by some guy at the FLGS. It hurts. This was your baby. Your pride and joy, that you raised from an idea and it got squashed. And this happens several more times. Rather than analyzing the loss the complaints start.

Another thing to consider is the number of players far exceeds the limited number that post here. Assuredly, there are more players out there that don't like some game mechanics and are silent or, like me, will wait for FFG to fix it. 

Please note that the "you" in the above comments was the editorial you and not YOU personally.

See, here we go. I'm not a game designer and not many people are on these forums, so it's impossible to ever criticize the game. You will never consider a complaint valid.

Conveniently, you also assert that complaining on the forums has nothing to do with FFG changing things. Got any evidence to back that up?

 

Quote

I'm not implying that people's opinions aren't important, but most of these nerf threads come across as sour grape complaints. You put in a lot of time theory crafting a build and more time playtesting it only to see it picked apart by an off the wall build by some guy at the FLGS. It hurts. This was 

your baby. Your pride and joy, that you raised from an idea and it got squashed. And this happens several more times. Rather than analyzing the loss the complaints start.



The reason my TIE Fighters couldn't damage anything was because the meta was filled with 6 health ships that could completely blank out and still block all my hits.

Back when the Phantom dominated the game, if your squad didn't have a hard counter in your list you would lose no matter how hard you flew. And when I tried out both named Phantoms, you would win every game as long as your opponent didn't have a hard counter. I've done plenty of analysis, this ship is ruining the game.

 

People that insist that complainers are always wrong and that nothing ever needs to be nerfed fall into 2 categories:

1.) People that aren't very good and play with similarly poorly skilled players. They can't properly exploit broken things, and their opponents can't either. They never experience these things as broken. The Phantom never crushed them because their opponent always managed to land it on rocks for example. Or they don't consider Soontir to be invincible because they/their opponents always did nothing but green 2 speed turns even when they were obvious and got blocked.

2.) Players that are good at the game and play with other good players. These players are all flying equally broken things if not the broken thing in question and they're all good at the game, so they never get crushed by the thing in question. This then makes them either genuinely unaware of how broken the thing in question is, or they just don't care. The Phantom never crushed these players because they were all flying counters to the Phantom, or the Phantom itself. They didn't consider Palp Defenders as broken because they were flying Parattanni or Palp Defenders exclusively for the past 3 months.

Edited by Turbo Toker

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I fall in to the "list crafter" category of X-Wing players. List crafting for me is half the fun of playing, and finding "counters" to powerful lists. I do enjoy the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" of the list crafting and covering your weaknesses as much as possible.

All in all, the meta was not in a bad place BEFORE the last FAQ release. All the factions were being played, nothing too dominate that another list could not beat. While there were more dominate lists (again, even then, nothing off the charts dominate), there were no dominate factions.

Admittedly I have not played the current meta, but if 4 TLTs and Bombers are a problem, (Let me say that again, if BOMBERs are a problem), the meta is not in a bad place at all. These ships have not had any real changes for a few waves, they were just over powered by other lists that are now nerfed. 

While some ships in the past, like the Phantom, were broken, the meta will ALWAYS have more powerful combos than others. That is the nature of the beast, and guess what. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as there is some sort of counter. If you want all things and everything to be equal, play Chess. (A great game in its own right! But that is not why I play X-Wing.) 

Edited by Jadotch

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11 hours ago, LordBlades said:

It was bound to happen. Quite a few people were bound to believe that the great nerfig is proof that, as long as you get a 'critical mass' to complain for long enough, anything can be nerfed.

 

With their pen&ink changes FFG has opened a door they won't be able to close again.

 

I fear constant nerf threads are here to stay.

If the masses were listened to, we'd all be playing t-65 vs. Gunboat.

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43 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

Funny that you mentiont that TLT´s were not in the top builds but ignore that same fact for Palpatine builds and only state that he was "too good".

No, he was not. You´re just trying to agree now with FFG and of course it´s easy thing to do after the nerf.

I agree with you on the part that not liking something is not a reason to nerf them. That is exactly what happened with Palpatine. I hate TLT´s, but have learned to beat them. Some build will always be stronger than others. That´s no reason to nerf everything which is played more at the top.

I wasn't trying to agree with FFG on the Palp nerf. I sort of looked at him in the light of choosing between an evade token or a focus token after the attacker rolled his dice. If I beat the attack roll with green dice then I'll take the focus for attack.

I don't agree or disagree with FFGs decisions. I just accept them. I don't know how old you are but I'm retired. Life is way too short to get your knickers in a wad over a game pushing little plastic space ships around on a tabletop.

 

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6 hours ago, StevenO said:

There are two problems with "ignored" here.  The first is when the thread would still start in the wrong form.  With the Rules questions those are usually answered pretty quickly anyway (although posting them to the Rules Forum would get them answered just as quickly) and then move on.  With those complaints you'd have to see a lot of thread getting moved.

The other "ignored" problem is that if you let the whiners complain with no one offering a contrary opinion it may start looking like they must be right.  After all if 10 people in a group says something is wrong and no one contradicts them then something MUST be wrong and FFG should "fix" it; never mind that those 10 are out of a group of say 100+ where the rest of them never gave the way things worked a second thought and wouldn't until FFG does something to pacify the whiners.

 

Yeah the second part is worrysome. It's also why i feel compelled to go into certain of these threads and reply. You can't let this nonsense stand unopposed for too long. Because it's actually a very small part of the community that gets overly vocal.

But then there are those that say tgis forum has no influence whatsoever on game design and balancing, and that FFG doesn't even consider what's posted here. Might be right as it's not moderated a lot...

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29 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

 I don't know how old you are but I'm retired. Life is way too short to get your knickers in a wad over a game pushing little plastic space ships around on a tabletop.

 

This is very true.

But you're getting your knickers in a wad over other people getting their knickers in a wad. This reasoning applies to both sides of the argument.

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48 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

See, here we go. I'm not a game designer and not many people are on these forums, so it's impossible to ever criticize the game. You will never consider a complaint valid.

Conveniently, you also assert that complaining on the forums has nothing to do with FFG changing things. Got any evidence to back that up?

 



The reason my TIE Fighters couldn't damage anything was because the meta was filled with 6 health ships that could completely blank out and still block all my hits.

Back when the Phantom dominated the game, if your squad didn't have a hard counter in your list you would lose no matter how hard you flew. And when I tried out both named Phantoms, you would win every game as long as your opponent didn't have a hard counter. I've done plenty of analysis, this ship is ruining the game.

 

People that insist that complainers are always wrong and that nothing ever needs to be nerfed fall into 2 categories:

1.) People that aren't very good and play with similarly poorly skilled players. They can't properly exploit broken things, and their opponents can't either. They never experience these things as broken. The Phantom never crushed them because their opponent always managed to land it on rocks for example. Or they don't consider Soontir to be invincible because they/their opponents always did nothing but green 2 speed turns even when they were obvious and got blocked.

2.) Players that are good at the game and play with other good players. These players are all flying equally broken things if not the broken thing in question and they're all good at the game, so they never get crushed by the thing in question. This then makes them either genuinely unaware of how broken the thing in question is, or they just don't care. The Phantom never crushed these players because they were all flying counters to the Phantom, or the Phantom itself. They didn't consider Palp Defenders as broken because they were flying Parattanni or Palp Defenders exclusively for the past 3 months.

You need to slow down and try to digest what I wrote. I don't know what level of player you are or what skill level your opponents are. Most of the pro-nerf crowd starts a thread with, "X is OP and needs nerfed". Then the rant begins. They expect FFG and other players to agree with their assessment. Now, I'm pretty sure FFG didn't design X-Wing by throwing darts. There had to be some foundation for the mechanics and play testing. More than likely it was based on statistical analysis. This is what's lacking in the nerf rants. You might have a dozen people clamoring for a nerf and offering suggestions. How many games were played? Against what builds? What level are the players? Were mirror matches considered? All these things and more need to be considered. Take for instance the release of the YV-666. Before it was released FFG changed the wording on Tactician to make it "Limited". They discovered that you could put three on the Triple Six and cause havoc. None of this type of analysis shows up in the nerf rants. It's all opinion and no facts.

As to my assertion that complaining on the forums is ignored by FFG to which you want proof, that's easy. It usually is worded something like "No unsolicited ideas or material will be accepted". What does this mean? If I propose a fix for the T-65 and six months later it shows up in a release I may have a legal claim. You can bet that FFG is keeping pretty meticulous notes on all stages of the design process to keep this from happening.

I'm not against players expressing an opinion on game mechanics. What I am against is someone coming here and starting a nerf rant and whining about something that they can't beat. In the case of the TLT it came out in 2015! I'll listen to a thoughtful criticism of a game mechanic that doesn't demand a nerf or a rant backed up by opinion only. 

Some of the nerfs mentioned in other threads offered solutions to the perceived problems. Some were pretty well thought out but most were not. Many were proposed by new players about stuff that came out in the first waves. Their time would have been better spent asking questions about play.

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23 minutes ago, Turbo Toker said:

This is very true.

But you're getting your knickers in a wad over other people getting their knickers in a wad. This reasoning applies to both sides of the argument.

Nope. Still pretty calm here. Wondering if all those participation trophies had anything to do with this.

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11 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

Great idea. Whinners should include a big yellow W in their Avatar images so you can ignore them.

Are we crazy? If you do not want to read TLT nerf idea 5345 thread...do not open it. 

 

Hex, you're right. But sometimes someone says something so, so, off the wall that it requires a respone.

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1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

I wasn't trying to agree with FFG on the Palp nerf. I sort of looked at him in the light of choosing between an evade token or a focus token after the attacker rolled his dice. If I beat the attack roll with green dice then I'll take the focus for attack.

I don't agree or disagree with FFGs decisions. I just accept them. I don't know how old you are but I'm retired. Life is way too short to get your knickers in a wad over a game pushing little plastic space ships around on a tabletop.

 

Surely you have an opinion on FFG´s decisions, as you just stated that Palpatine was too good before. Even if there are no facts to back it up.

I´m not too young, but if something I enjoy  is taking a turn to a wrong direction without proper reasoning, my knickers will get twisted.

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