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painted dials legal

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There was a discussion on FB about painted dials and whether they are legal in a tournament?  

Are they?  There seem to be a lot of them around and for me... I love painting them and showing them off.

Legal... not legal...

Thanks

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15 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

paint has never mattered on the model, why would it matter on the dial?

Actually, I believe somewhere in the official rules, and it might be in the organized play documentation rather than the actual game rules,  that technically you aren't allowed to paint your ships. Like it says you can't modify them in any way so as to ensure there is no confusion on what the ship is.

Of course, this has literally never been enforced at basically any level so yeah doesn't matter but if someone were to bring it up I think that is in the rules somewhere. Unless that was changed since no one ever bothered to enforce it anyway.

As to dials, I am not aware of any particular rule on that, and really as long as you aren't altering the maneuvers I don't see how that could matter.

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Yes if you cause confusion by painting a similar model to another (like the tie example) then theres an issue of confusion. I wouldnt even paint a T65 to look like Poe's T70 even though those models are physically quite different in the wings just to avoid "I thought that was a T70!" issues.

However even among FFG's own models, nothing says you have to use the proper paint scheme. People use regular TIEs for Sabine's TIE, the red royal guard ships for non-royal guard pilots, and new falcon for old falcon pilots.

Theres no way paint on the dial could be confusing though. What's he going to do, make it look like imperial dials when its scum? the ships should give that away...

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12 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Actually, I believe somewhere in the official rules, and it might be in the organized play documentation rather than the actual game rules,  that technically you aren't allowed to paint your ships. Like it says you can't modify them in any way so as to ensure there is no confusion on what the ship is.

 

You have this backwards.  You explicitly ARE allowed to modify (both paint and physical alteration) your ships, AS LONG as the modification doesn't create confusion as to which ship it is.  It used to be that you couldn't physically alter them but could paint them, but they relaxed that restriction a few months ago.

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The official tournament rules are available on the X-wing product page under Tournament Resources.  Anyone can download and read them for themselves, and I usually recommend that you do.  A TO may use rules different from the official tournament rules outside of official FFG events, but it's still good to know the rules yourself and have something you can point to when there are rule disputes.

Modifying ships, bases, cards, tokens/dials, obstacles/bombs, and dice are all covered in the "Component Modifications" section on page 4.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/

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3 hours ago, jmswood said:

Tournament regulations answer this one:

"Players may mark their tokens and their maneuver dials to to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not comprimised."

Which is basically saying that as long as your dial still works as it is intended it should be completely fine.  This is the big argument AGAINST the idea that you had to use faction matching dials back when Most Wanted first came out.

 

3 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

You have always been allowed to paint your ships, so long you don't like paint an FO as a regular Tie, for example.

Actually, no reason you couldn't.  The paint job isn't what makes the ship and their more recent allowance of modeling blurs things even more.

If you think painting a regular TIE Fighter with the same scheme the TIE/fo uses is a problem then what do you do if I were to just paint ALL of my ships in identical colors and patterns that didn't happen to belong to any of the ships naturally?  If I had a "Desert Storm" theme and painted my TIE Fighters, TIE/sf, and TIE/fo all in desert camo brown are you telling me there is a problem because the now all have the same colors.

 

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48 minutes ago, StevenO said:
3 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

You have always been allowed to paint your ships, so long you don't like paint an FO as a regular Tie, for example.

Actually, no reason you couldn't.  The paint job isn't what makes the ship and their more recent allowance of modeling blurs things even more.

If you think painting a regular TIE Fighter with the same scheme the TIE/fo uses is a problem then what do you do if I were to just paint ALL of my ships in identical colors and patterns that didn't happen to belong to any of the ships naturally?  If I had a "Desert Storm" theme and painted my TIE Fighters, TIE/sf, and TIE/fo all in desert camo brown are you telling me there is a problem because the now all have the same colors.

 

Yup, this has always been my argument when people say that you can't paint a /LN to look like a /FO.  The only thing that the rules say you can't do is paint a ship with vulgarity that would be considered offensive.  Note, that a modification is different than painting, as the rules used to explicitly call out ALL modifications are illegal, but painting is fine.  Now the mod rules are relaxed, but that doesn't mean anything to painting.  No where are there restrictions on what your painting can be.

 

TL;DR, you can paint your /LN to look like /FO if you want to.

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3 hours ago, Khyros said:

 

TL;DR, you can paint your /LN to look like /FO if you want to.

if you paint your /LN to look like a /FO that's possibly OK, but if you run them in the same list then you might get in trouble.

I actually had this happen in a game and I was unaware my opponent had done it, he was running a mixture of /LN & /FO. I shot at what I thought was a /LN at R1 with 4 dice and landed 3 damage, then when I said that It was destroyed my opponent said no it was a /FO and still had 1 health.

 

I was really unimpressed to say the least.

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1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

if you paint your /LN to look like a /FO that's possibly OK, but if you run them in the same list then you might get in trouble.

I actually had this happen in a game and I was unaware my opponent had done it, he was running a mixture of /LN & /FO. I shot at what I thought was a /LN at R1 with 4 dice and landed 3 damage, then when I said that It was destroyed my opponent said no it was a /FO and still had 1 health.

 

I was really unimpressed to say the least.

The trouble was you weren't really paying attention to what you were shooting at.  Where he could get into trouble is when setting dials and assigning a ship the wrong dial.

He had it /ln and /fo painted the same.  Nothing keeps them from being painted the same way!  If you aren't entirely sure on what you are shooting at CHECK FIRST.  What if the ship you had been shooting at really was a TIE/ln but it had a Shield or Hull upgrade on it instead of being the /fo model?  The same thing would have happened.

If the rules weren't so darn set on requiring models to be sitting on the board at all times the game would run so much more smoothly if you just pulled them all off the board and thus had to rely on the individual base tiles which provide you the information you need to know what you're actually shooting at.

 

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3 minutes ago, StevenO said:

The trouble was you weren't really paying attention to what you were shooting at.  Where he could get into trouble is when setting dials and assigning a ship the wrong dial.

He had it /ln and /fo painted the same.  Nothing keeps them from being painted the same way!  If you aren't entirely sure on what you are shooting at CHECK FIRST.  What if the ship you had been shooting at really was a TIE/ln but it had a Shield or Hull upgrade on it instead of being the /fo model?  The same thing would have happened.

If the rules weren't so darn set on requiring models to be sitting on the board at all times the game would run so much more smoothly if you just pulled them all off the board and thus had to rely on the individual base tiles which provide you the information you need to know what you're actually shooting at.

 

Actually as per the tournament regulations, NO you cannot do this, From the Tournament regulations:

 

Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their squads according to

the following rules:

 

• Players may paint their ship models. They cannot modify a ship model in any

way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

 

if a ship cannot be easily identified by glancing at it and must be visually scrutinised each time a target is selected then that most certainly falls outside the rules.

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I totally agree with@Mace Windu. Altering a ship from it's "out of the pack" stock condition, is most definitely modifying it. You're modifying it's appearance just as much as if you were adding or removing parts of the model. And it can create confusion, especially when you paint it to appear like another ship as is the case with a TIE/ln being painted to look like a TIE/fo.

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1 hour ago, Parravon said:

And it can create confusion, especially when you paint it to appear like another ship as is the case with a TIE/ln being painted to look like a TIE/fo.

And here we are back to argument: if i paint my whole squad ex. winter camo and it includes both FO and LN and heck it, SF is this confusing my opponent or me having unique looking squad and my opponent NOT paying attention to game. Holy is it really that hard to look at the base (not to mention asking...).

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3 hours ago, Vitalis said:

And here we are back to argument: if i paint my whole squad ex. winter camo and it includes both FO and LN and heck it, SF is this confusing my opponent or me having unique looking squad and my opponent NOT paying attention to game. Holy is it really that hard to look at the base (not to mention asking...).

Yeah, sometimes it is. My old eyes aren't what they used to be, and trying to read a ship's token isn't that easy anymore, especially when it doesn't identify the ship type clearly. 

Edited by Parravon

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3 hours ago, Vitalis said:

And here we are back to argument: if i paint my whole squad ex. winter camo and it includes both FO and LN and heck it, SF is this confusing my opponent or me having unique looking squad and my opponent NOT paying attention to game. Holy is it really that hard to look at the base (not to mention asking...).

I mean... yes.  It is hard to look at the base from across the table, in particular if for instance your opponent is flying 3 Black Squads and 3 Omega Squads and literally the only easily visible difference between them is the shield.

This is the reason that I won't ever repaint my TIE/lns, in case I need to run them alongside my repainted TIE/fos without causing confusion.

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13 hours ago, StevenO said:

Painting is NOT modifying.

Yes it is, anything that changes it in any way from it's appearance in the package is modifying the ship.

And no you can't simply demand that your opponent "pay more attention".   Confusion is in the eye of the beholder, and what you feel is reasonable simply doesn't matter.  What matters is what the other person thinks and more importantly what the TO thinks.

But the mear fact that someone was confused due to your paint scheme means you have effectively broken the rules.  Now there is in this case the any reasonable person argument to be made, would any reasonable person be confused by this?  If no then it may just be that the person is looking for a free win.  But in some of the cases above I think any reasonable person would be confused and as a TO I'd declare your ships unsuitable to be used.

The rules are actually quite clear and they don't mention anything about someone having to keep track of what ship is what based on the base token.

Edited by VanorDM

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So really the question comes down to is painting a mod.  I will quote an older Tourney rules to answer that:

 

"Ship models may be painted as desired as long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience. The size and shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way"

 

(From V2.2.1 https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-Tournament-Rules.pdf)

 

Paint is fine.  MODIFYING size/shape not fine.  Paint =/= modify.

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57 minutes ago, Khyros said:

So really the question comes down to is painting a mod.  I will quote an older Tourney rules to answer that:

 

"Ship models may be painted as desired as long as the alterations are not offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience. The size and shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way"

 

(From V2.2.1 https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-Tournament-Rules.pdf)

 

Paint is fine.  MODIFYING size/shape not fine.  Paint =/= modify.

o_O

OK, apparently the text tournament regas are different from the full colour ones, because they don't contain that section about not modifying models.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/44/ec/44ec2498-5833-4c30-a5d8-6edb80609de0/x-wing_tournament_regulations_v21_text_version.pdf

Nor is that phrasing in the version currently linked from the products page

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/b5/29/b529044b-2703-4ff8-b234-48d8015edb7f/x-wing_tournament_regulations_v21_high_res.pdf

Where did you find that link?

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Right, as I said, those are old outdated rules.  I just referenced them because there was a time that modifications were 100% illegal.  But painting was okay.  Indicating that FFG does not consider painting a modification.  Not saying FFG never changes their mind about things, but it seems odd that they would change their mind that painting = modification without explicitly calling it out.

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1 hour ago, Khyros said:

Paint is fine.  MODIFYING size/shape not fine.  Paint =/= modify.

Regardless of if painting is modifying or not... If you paint your Tie/SF to look like a /FO or /LN or whatever, and the other guy gets confused it is his prerogative to ask you to use one that isn't confusing.  Answer with "just look at the base" may not fly with many TO's and IMO shouldn't fly with any of them.

Because regardless of your opinion on the matter, if someone gets confused by the paint job, then you are in fact breaking the "adversely affect another player’s experience" part of the rule.

It is not fair to expect someone to make extra effort to tell two ships apart when they shouldn't look like each other in the first place.

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