Regionals Data - The Impact of Flotillas

[thecolourred 80]

Just to add to the discussion, Texas is swimming in flotillas. We actively tell new players that the next purchase should be a flotilla so they stop handicapping themselves.

 

Note that this is Dallas and Houston: I've only been to SA for a regionals, and that was swimming in activations.

[Darth Sanguis 6,324]

Probably too late to the discussion to matter, but I figured I'd chime in anyways.

In NE Ohio we had a slight issue with Flotillas taking over builds just after the wave 3&4 release.

Here's the weird bit though, over the last 6 months flotillas have dropped to as low as 1 per fleet.

We had lifeboat problems, then folks started hunting life boats, no one in our community really does this anymore because flotillas rarely survive 1st engagement with our group. 

Same goes for activation spam..... we had a player who was spamming the hell outta the GR75 (4 in his list, total of 7 activations) but then another player built a way powerful madine/dual liberty with 5 activations and just wiped him out.... activation spam died out too for us...

In my local group (about 12 people) it's rare to see either lifeboats or more than 2 floats...

Which I suppose is why I'm so unconvinced that they're breaking anything...

[thecolourred 80]

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

Probably too late to the discussion to matter, but I figured I'd chime in anyways.

In NE Ohio we had a slight issue with Flotillas taking over builds just after the wave 3&4 release.

Here's the weird bit though, over the last 6 months flotillas have dropped to as low as 1 per fleet.

We had lifeboat problems, then folks started hunting life boats, no one in our community really does this anymore because flotillas rarely survive 1st engagement with our group. 

Same goes for activation spam..... we had a player who was spamming the hell outta the GR75 (4 in his list, total of 7 activations) but then another player built a way powerful madine/dual liberty with 5 activations and just wiped him out.... activation spam died out too for us...

In my local group (about 12 people) it's rare to see either lifeboats or more than 2 floats...

Which I suppose is why I'm so unconvinced that they're breaking anything...

I think the issue is that you don't see non-MSU fleets WITHOUT them, not that there are too many of them. Even then, you have MSU fleets taking flotillas to free points for more upgrades on their combat ships / fighter screen.

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Quote

This. So True. Im taking a 5 ship fleet with squads to an event on Saturday with 3 flotillas in it. Together with kit the 3 cost 62 points. One of MC30s alone is 96, the Squads are 88 points (hell, Mothma accounts for 30). I lost all three playing last night at my local club yet won the game (anecdotal i know, but illustrative).  I think flotillas are maybe becoming the latest boogie man similar to the likes of Demolisher, Ackbar etc before it.

haha, exactly! OF COURSE you're taking 3 flots and 2 ships. Those floats are the best buy in that and most lists! 62 points for 3 activations and some utility? Yes please. they are a no brainer.

They aren't a boogie man, they aren't OP. They're just auto includes. Like Demolisher. (Unlike Ackbar). Auto-includes in any game are a bad thing. 

 

[itzSteve 612]

Just my 2 cents on this:

I don't have a problem with the flotillas. They are yet another problem on the table that you need a plan to deal with. There are many tools in the toolbox to deal with them, and I feel they are a sink or swim ship in the game. Personally, I have gone the route of outfitting a flotilla killer ship to go hunting them down with, and I will tell you, it is very satisfying when they pop. Activation advantage can swing very quickly when they go down. I also use MY flotilla (slicer tools/BH) to deny other ships the commands they want the most. It doesn't run from ANY fight. I expect to lose it, but if it delays my opponents plans a turn or two, it was worth bringing to the fight. I also bring a second flotilla for the token giver/activation delay tactic that is common, but it also acts as a backup squadron activator if BH goes down. That being said, I agree that the Lifeboat flotilla sitting on the back line activating through relay is kind of frustrating, but hey...if that's where you want to sink your points, so be it. My flotilla hunter will be along shortly to say hello.

As far as flotillas in general, I think it would be interesting to find out how players are actually using their flotillas. There are many ways to outfit a flotilla for many different purposes. Just because you have X amount of players all bringing 2+ flotillas to the table, I bet each player has outfitted them differently depending on their battle plan. I think there is plenty of diversity there.

[Darth Sanguis 6,324]

7 minutes ago, thecolourred said:

I think the issue is that you don't see non-MSU fleets WITHOUT them, not that there are too many of them. Even then, you have MSU fleets taking flotillas to free points for more upgrades on their combat ships / fighter screen.

I really don't see why this is an issue.

Flotillas are the first dedicated support ship.

They exist to help boost fleets.

That's the whole point.

They can dedicate to give tokens, boost fighter survival, repair ships, boost bomber damage, (other fleet supports I don't use? lol) and act as an efficient carrier. but that's all they do... take as many as you need but eventually the support they provide is going to be a wash.... because they are very easy to destroy and can't hurt anything. 

Maybe it's cause I often play support roles in games that have class systems, but you never wanna go into battle without your support, you need your buffs, healing, damage mitigation blah blah blah...

I wouldn't say they're an auto include, as freewill and all, but why wouldn't you take support ships?

Edited April 5, 2017 by Darth Sanguis

[ovinomanc3r 4,436]

All you tried it but failed.

No matter the threads you opened to discuss it, I will find you...

I see you...

[GammonLord 324]

14 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

haha, exactly! OF COURSE you're taking 3 flots and 2 ships. Those floats are the best buy in that and most lists! 62 points for 3 activations and some utility? Yes please. they are a no brainer.

They aren't a boogie man, they aren't OP. They're just auto includes. Like Demolisher. (Unlike Ackbar). Auto-includes in any game are a bad thing. 

 

Im not sure they are an auto include, just like Demolisher and Ackbar aren't (despite representing great value, especially in Demolisher's case). 

There's plenty of scope to have a very functional multi activation fleet without them. A swarm of Arquittens springs to mind, multi Glads, etc. 

The assumption that a 2/ 3 ship fleet is dead/ has no utility is also faulty. Twin ISDs with a bunch of fighters are lethal in the right hands, regardless of the opponent's activation advantage. 

I think it's become "common sense" they are an auto include, but nothing is. Not to denigrate anyone's opinion etc but the limit really is imagination. As i write this I am now thinking "am i trapped in a flotilla dictated paradigm?". It really is only that, a paradigm. It'll come and go.

Edited April 5, 2017 by GammonLord

[Caldias 2,209]

As to them being auto include, there is data that is absolutely indicating that they are the most auto-include of any other ship/upgrade.  The point has been made before.  

I have to believe that when someone like Steve, who has single-handedly fostered and engaged much of the Armada player base and probably converted lots of people to Armada sales on his streaming alone, says there is a problem, that FFG takes that seriously.

[shmitty 3,315]

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

While I have not been impressed with the analytical chops of this forum before, this is embarrassing.

My bad.

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

First, flotillas are essentially an auto-include

Virtually no Regionals winning fleet exists without flotillas, and they are ubiquitous across the board. When a new player begins the game, the next thing they should buy after the core set is a flotilla or, better yet, 3 flotillas, in basically all cases. No, little Timmy, put down the super cool ISD and buy those Gozantis. Deal with it. Consider: in the a majority of Regionals, nobody in the top 4 did not have a flotilla. How would the community feel if this was the MC80, perhaps? Clearly the flotilla itself is driving what else can be played in the meta.

That I have to disagree with.  The flotilla is inexpensive enough that literally anything can play with it.  It's not like a bunch of flotillas has become some dominant archetype by itself.  It is enabling a greater level of fleet diversity.  2x Flotillas is roughly 10% of the points in an average fleet.  No way are those 2 flotillas determining the other 90% of the fleet.

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

Second, activation diversity has fallen dramatically

In wave 2, 47% of Regionals winners ran 2 or 3 activations. In wave 5, that number is 9%. There has been 80% drop in the appearance of 2-3 activation fleets. The top two activation brackets represented less than 2/3rds of fleets in wave 2, and now they represent 4 out of 5 fleets. Fleets have consolidated into 4 or 5 activations. You are a fool to run anything else, unless you want to push even higher.

I come at this from the opposite direction.  In Wave 2 if your brought 5 activations (Which I did, yay for Mothma Cr-90s), you could know you would out-activate 75% of the fleets you played.  Now it would only be about 50%.  This coincides with the average max bid dropping from 27 in Wave 2 to 15 in Wave 5.  There are fewer fleets going for crazy bids to capitalize on the last/first shenanigans, because it is harder to guarantee.  I think the disparity that causes activation advantage has shrunk with the arrival of the flotilla.

Activation diversity may be lower, but that is not a bad thing.  High activations used to only be available to a small set of fleet types.  Now any fleet can have them.  How is that bad?

[shmitty 3,315]

2 hours ago, GammonLord said:

Cheers for the data @shmitty - big ask but could we compare flotilla usage to fighter usage? Maybe see a correlation between cheaper carriers = more fighters or maybe cheap flotillas enabling smaller but more effective minimal screens? (all hypothetical ruminations, I'm not advocating a "squadrono-pocalypse viewpoint! just curious )

I'll poke at it and see if there is anything worth pulling out.

[geek19 6,557]

All shmittys data showed too was that the number of activations increased. We're all going crazy on whether we have too many flotillas when all we know is that the average number of ships went up. 4 CR90s and one flotilla is still 5 ships, as is 4 flotillas and Demolisher. It's how you use it all. Also, 4 ships still had more representation than 5 in the wave 5 data. It's small, but still significant. That could be 2 ISD 2 goz, or an ISD, demo, goz, and an arq.

If you're not bringing a way to fight the flotillas, then sure that's a problem. But I don't really think you need to have one combat ship fighting another combat ship while 3-4 friends egg him on in the background.

I think a large amount of this is a meta issue. Not that I'm insulting anyone's meta or playing ability, but why are they getting to push 3 flotillas back there? Can you get a fast moving ship back there and just start ramming them? CR90s and Raiders love running into fluffy flotilla pillows and shooting them next turn!

We're not really running into the issue in Chicago, so I don't think it's a matter of Having the Right People Who Play the Game Correctly, more that we've just started walloping people who try to bring 3 of them and leave them in the back undefended. In my mind, it's like back in wave 2 when people used to not bring squadrons. I started bringing mass squadrons against them, and they started bringing at least a token force to not get killed by b wings. At least that's my take on it.

Mind you, my response is not me saying "git gud" but me wondering out loud why this is happening in your guys' metas like that. I'm interested in responses saying why it's happening that way to you guys.

[shmitty 3,315]

1 hour ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

So I'm a miniatures game noob really (Hardcore Armada, Semi-soft IA). How do/did other mini games prevent or fix activation advantage?

Dropzone Commander puts a cap on activations.  Which causes everyone to play to the cap.

Battletech forces a player to double activate if they have twice the number of units remaining as their opponent to activate.

Imperial Assault allows a pass if out-activated.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

1 hour ago, shmitty said:

That is true.  They are a nice reference point for the discussion.  There are some patterns there that can be used to support arguments.

If you and I disagree it is here.  I just don't see a homogeneous meta at all since the flotilla arrived.  Yes nearly every fleet has one, but a couple of small support ships do not make a meta homogeneous.  The sheer variety of of combinations of ships that come with those flotillas in successful fleets has been awesome.  I see no evidence of a large-scale homogeneous meta.

Anyways, I appreciate your well thought out responses.  Just not seeing the same things that you are.

I play a lot of different games and strongly prefer games with alternating activations.  Activation advantage is a thing in every one of them.  It is just part of the mechanic.  Each of them handle it in different ways, but in every case the game can still be balanced with activations providing an advantage.

Alternating activations provides an awesome set of decisions that impact the course of the game.  Those decision points are part of what I think makes Armada a tactically challenging game.

For clarity, I am literally a middling player. I did not crack Top 4 (even 8) at the one Regional I have been able to attend, and after last night's hard fought defeat to @Undeadguy my VASSAL Freshman Tournament fleet, my score in that tournament is literally average. However, I feel the need to push back on several fronts. First, nobody on here should get a pass to be rude. I don't care if you're Clontrooper5 (sp), @JJs Juggernaut, (both of whom are extremely polite, wonderful folks), or anyone else. If you are really concerned about an issue, and want the community to be aware of it, you should remember that being rude or insulting only predisposes those not already in agreement with you to disagree, so from an extremely cynical point of of view you are just making your job harder. I would like to publicly commend @CaribbeanNinja for being an exemplar on the forum for his (assuming gender here) gentlemanly conduct.

Next, I understand the concerns about a "homogeneous meta". I find it very difficult to construct a fleet without flotillas anymore; I'm not quite sure that's a bad thing. They are usually more than capable of providing fleet support, and as my match with Undeadguy last night showed, at least the Imperial ones have no problem putting out damage (much to the Imperial class Gryphon and Insitigator's detriment). However, just a quick review of the fleets I've been building and experimenting with reveals a trend: none work without flotillas. Some are there for activations, true, but none are there just for activations. They all have another role in the fleet that could not be filled without the help of the little guys (shoutouts to squadron command on my Arquitens cruiser squadron and Comms Net powering the Liaisons on my VFT fleet). Having watched the fleet build subforum, I have only seen more and more variable fleets deployed by the players here, and very rarely is someone told, "No, drop this combatant; you need flotillas."

Continuing with the anecdotes, in my own meta, I very rarely see back-rank hiding flotillas (with the exception of the odd, and I mean odd, admiral lifeboat). Relay squadrons are targeted with extreme prejudice (much to the benefit of E-wing numbers), and the ability of the fast combatants to run down and savage backrank flotillas essentially unopposed means that almost all are integrated into the formations of the other combatants, where there is much fireworks (and battleships to draw fire). Regarding recruiting, I do almost all of it for myself, since my university has no nearby gaming store, and the other serious player is way too busy for his own good. When I introduce other people to the game, they love it, with or without flotillas, and once they really fasten onto the capabilities the little buggers offer, they love them, almost without exception. Now I don't have enough to spam (one of either variety), so when games are played out of my personal collection (the vast majority of the time), we literally can't run a 2/3 lineup. But with all that in mind, I've never had anyone put off by the mechanic.

My final point is twofold; this perception of an issue is certainly an issue worth discussion, as it has been in several threads of late, but I also would be inclined, for now, to assess it as a perception. When people ask me personally, I never tell them to pick up three flotillas over an Imperial, I make a suggestion based off what I observed of their playstyle when I introduced them to the game. And it's almost always other combatants. As someone who cannot consistently attend tournaments, I keep an eye on the meta just to understand the tactical set of the game, but many of these points of view, to me, appear to be coming from a highly competitive tournament standpoint. There is nothing wrong with that; FFG clearly wants Armada to be one of its flagship (no pun intended) OP games. However, at a casual level, the game is still as fun as ever. If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion, Armada is a game. If your fleet is no fun when it loses, it probably isn't when it does; build yourself a fleet you would love to fly, and fly it every now and again, just to clear your head. For myself, I use my Blockade Squadron fleet. I know every time I run a "fun" fleet for myself, I end up learning things about the game to incorporate into a competitive fleet I might not have discovered just playing that fleet. 

Returning to the competitive level, from Wave 2 to Wave 5, the data only shows a jump of one activation on average. I'm sure almost all of those are flotillas, and many more ships were replaced by flotillas, but that hardly qualifies as an explosion. Way back in Wave 2, many of us were complaining that the inability to run more than a handful of ships if we wanted larger combatants was ruining the Star Wars of the game. Now we can, but the patch FFG used is ruining the game. I'm genuinely sorry the current game state is driving many players away from the game, but as someone who by and large has not experienced these issues and looks forward very much to my (average) monthly sorties to the gaming store for a game, the fire I feel for Armada has not gone anywhere. The last VASSAL World Cup top table, as is often trotted out, only had a flotilla apiece, and four activations (below average if you don't round). If the activation war continues to explode, i will upgrade my view from careful observation to actual concern. But if Armada, a game about plastic spaceships in a dearly beloved galaxy far far away and long ago, is only stressing you instead of allowing you some enjoyment, I respectfully suggest you attempt to find another way for you to enjoy yourself. That really isn't good for you, and while I'm always sad to see community members leave, I will never begrudge someone what they need to do for themselves. By all means continue with Armada, but have fun and fly casual.

Edited April 5, 2017 by GiledPallaeon
I had the VASSAL World Cup in mind, not the official Worlds' Championship

[Darth Sanguis 6,324]

8 minutes ago, geek19 said:

so I don't think it's a matter of Having the Right People Who Play the Game Correctly, more that we've just started walloping people who try to bring 3 of them and leave them in the back undefended. In my mind, it's like back in wave 2 when people used to not bring squadrons. I started bringing mass squadrons against them, and they started bringing at least a token force to not get killed by b wings. At least that's my take on it.

So much this. I agree 100%

You pop those life boats with akbar round 3 and suddenly the next time you play he's on foresight or homeone again...

Same goes for multiples... get an isd with gunnery teams and h9s in range of the mass floats once and then suddenly the next time you play they're running floats next to bigger ships cause they know you wont waste a shot on 18-23 points of nothing if theres something real to shoot.

 

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

I hope the issue is totally moot! My gut tells me there is a change coming. I am excited to see where everything goes.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

36 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

Well thought out snip

As far as flotillas in general, I think it would be interesting to find out how players are actually using their flotillas. There are many ways to outfit a flotilla for many different purposes. Just because you have X amount of players all bringing 2+ flotillas to the table, I bet each player has outfitted them differently depending on their battle plan. I think there is plenty of diversity there.

^^^^^^^^^^ Speaking for myself, I don't bring flotillas for activations. I bring flotillas for a use, whether that's Comms Net, squadron activation (relay or conventional), Bomber Command Center if I'm in a Rebel scum mood, Slicer Tools with Suppressor, etc. In contrast to how are several ways to play a Gladiator but only one is truly dominant, there are many ways to play flotillas, and all play to different fleet archetypes. That is something worth bearing in mind.

19 minutes ago, shmitty said:

My bad.

That I have to disagree with.  The flotilla is inexpensive enough that literally anything can play with it.  It's not like a bunch of flotillas has become some dominant archetype by itself.  It is enabling a greater level of fleet diversity.  2x Flotillas is roughly 10% of the points in an average fleet.  No way are those 2 flotillas determining the other 90% of the fleet.

I come at this from the opposite direction.  In Wave 2 if your brought 5 activations (Which I did, yay for Mothma Cr-90s), you could know you would out-activate 75% of the fleets you played.  Now it would only be about 50%.  This coincides with the average max bid dropping from 27 in Wave 2 to 15 in Wave 5.  There are fewer fleets going for crazy bids to capitalize on the last/first shenanigans, because it is harder to guarantee.  I think the disparity that causes activation advantage has shrunk with the arrival of the flotilla.

Activation diversity may be lower, but that is not a bad thing.  High activations used to only be available to a small set of fleet types.  Now any fleet can have them.  How is that bad?

You have my undying appreciation and respect, @shmitty, if it makes a difference. I also feel the need to repeat that last point loudly. Flotillas have not just enabled MSUs be more M and S. They have enabled dozens of other types to make appearances. Both @Undeadguy and I have VFT fleets with two Comms Net Gozantis, one of which is a lifeboat. However, we took that advantage and ran two completely different directions. Sure neither of us have serious (or in my case any) fighter screens, and we both have an FT Raider, but he has a pair of Gladiators and an Arquitens, whereas I went for broke with a pair of Imperial class Star Destroyers. Those fleet share some similarities, but they ran in totally opposite directions. That is an effect that cannot be dismissed, just as that the cost/activation of a flotilla goes part and parcel with the fact that they are, by points, a miserly fraction of most fleets.

Edited April 5, 2017 by GiledPallaeon
Clarity

[shmitty 3,315]

58 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

1: I have seen the same waning interest here. Our last few tourneys have had lower attendance than usual and everyone is bringing a truckload of flotillas. The least I saw in any list over the weekend was 2, and we had one game where 11 ships were on the table and 7 of those 11 were flotillas. There were more flotillas than all other ships combined across my games. It's making the game boring and same-y.

That sounds obnoxious.  We just had a 500 point tourney.  Some players brought no flotillas and I won with only 1.

1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

2: For any saying it's an east coast meta problem, why does the regionals data say it is everywhere? In all metas, 4 activations and 5 activations, usually of the 2 ship / 2 flot or 2 ship / 3 flot variety dominates. That's not just on the east coast and the data indicates if you want to finish in the top 4, 80% of people did what I just said. That is an overwhelmingly dominant meta pick.

Just to be snarky, the data also says that bringing a CR-90 increases your odds of making the Top 4 more than a flotilla.

Flotillas	79%	63%	85%	89%	90%	89%
>1 Flotillas	46%	28%	59%	61%	66%	68%
>2 Flotillas	32%	23%	18%	21%	29%	37%

You made me go and add a line to the data.  There seems to be some diminishing returns to going past 2 flotillas.  

I would be more concerned with this if any of the other data pointed towards samey-ness in fleets.  As far as I can see, it doesn't.

[Reinholt 1,719]

Gillead: I just pulled up the World's stream and both Justin and JJ were running multiple flotillas. I don't think what you said is correct.

 

Shmitty: I wasn't referring to you and you know it.  Data collection != data analysis and while I don't always agree with your frame of reference, if we accent your frame and assumptions your conclusions are sound.

 

Overall, this kind of thing gives me flashbacks to the financial crisis. A lot of the people around me were torturing data in increasingly extreme ways to avoid an emerging conclusion, and it made the problems much worse.

 

My prediction: all of the top table worlds lists will include at least 2 flotillas, regardless of side, unless a Rieekan ram brigade or Cracken list makes it in, in which case they can run an infinity of corvettes but will still be spamming activations.

 

The flotilla is an auto-include. FFG should re-release the core set with just squadrons and 3 flotillas per side.

[itzSteve 612]

8 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

The flotilla is an auto-include. FFG should re-release the core set with just squadrons and 3 flotillas per side.

I don't care who you are...that's funny right there!!! LOL 

Edited April 5, 2017 by itzSteve

[shmitty 3,315]

6 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

My prediction: all of the top table worlds lists will include at least 2 flotillas, regardless of side, unless a Rieekan ram brigade or Cracken list makes it in, in which case they can run an infinity of corvettes but will still be spamming activations.

You and I both made a similar prediction at GenCon this past year.  I had 4 activations in my fleet and you had 5 I think.  We both got beat by a 2 activation fleet in the late rounds...

Your prediction will likely be accurate.  I would bet on a couple of flotillas per fleet on average at the top tables.  I would also bet we won't see more than 2 fleets with any passing similarity to each other beyond the flotillas.  5 or 6 different admirals in the Top 8.  I think you'll see a mix of large and small ships.  Black dice and red dice fleets.

[RobertK 709]

15 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

My prediction: all of the top table worlds lists will include at least 2 flotillas, regardless of side, unless a Rieekan ram brigade or Cracken list makes it in, in which case they can run an infinity of corvettes but will still be spamming activations.

I'm inclined to agree. I am no great player, but looking at the data from Regionals this seems pretty obvious.

If it were fun to push around flotillas then there would be no problem. But most of what I see happening is people using this (flotilla pushing) to delay doing the fun stuff so they can do the fun stuff at the right time. By "fun stuff" I mean using that part of your fleet that will be decisive. People who want to be doing fun stuff the whole time feel like they are forced into playing an un-fun, meta-driven sub-game, they will likely quit (if they've already bought into the game) or never start.

Now, there are times that I do fun stuff with my flotillas. A Slicer Tools Suppressor leaps to mind. But most of the time the flotilla activation is simply for delay.

Is there a possibility that new flotillas will be added that DO stuff, but are still cheap enough to keep fleets diverse? I expect so. But I can also see why people might be worried about flotilla creep as it stands now.

Edited April 5, 2017 by RobertK

[Undeadguy 5,749]

16 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

The flotilla is an auto-include.

Pretty sure FFG intended for this to happen.

Quote

As one would expect, the number of Rebel transports you will want to run in your fleet corresponds directly to what you hope they will accomplish, but their low, low, low fleet-point cost makes it easy for multiple transport flotillas to accomplish multiple tasks in a single fleet.

Quote

So how many Rebel transports do you want in your fleet? You will almost certainly benefit from one to three. Beyond that, it will take a good deal of imagination to make use of a greater number of transports, although there may yet be someone looking to run a swarm of GR-75 Combat Retrofits in a fleet utilizing either General Rieekan or General Dodonna.

Quote

With its new flotillas and their Fleet Support upgrades, Armada Wave III is destined to make a major impact on your ongoing fleet battles—all without added piles of attack dice. How will you make use of the Imperial Assault Carriers Expansion Pack and the Rebel Transports Expansion Pack? 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/5/6/a-different-sort-of-strength/

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/4/29/support-your-squadrons-support-your-fleet/

Quote

Ultimately, the best way to fly a flotilla of Gozanti-class cruisers is the way that best complements your overall strategy. But the question remains: how will you make use of these flexible flotillas to complement your fleet? Will you rely upon them to activate your squadrons? Will you field multiple flotillas and activate them early in order to draw out your opponent's larger ships? Will you use them to ensure your commands are more effective than your opponent's, from round to round?

 

Will you field multiple flotillas and activate them early in order to draw out your opponent's larger ships?

[ovinomanc3r 4,436]

Armada is not boring. 

This topic is boring.

All we already know that some people see a problem and want that FFG do something and some people don't see a problem at all.

The discussion is over at this point.

The best things we can do are two:

1. Build better fleets. Find fleets without flotillas that could perform well and even better than flotillas. This is the funniest one cause at end is just "shut up and play".

2. Open a new thread and vote. No comments,  no *****. Just "yes" and "no". This is not the funniest cause is just "shut up and vote"

And yes I know it is a forum and free speech is good but I cannot be the only one stuck in this dejavu.

[OgRib 388]

Here is one of the most iconic images from Rogue One, count the flotillas visible (I see at least three).  Rebel flotillas are one of the most iconic ships frm the original trilogy, and anybody watching Rebels would agree Gozantis are also extremely common.

 

 

Having said that - just treating them as a hull type ignores a vast range of different usage that plays very differently.  A BCC flotilla plays and interacts quite differently from a relay squadron pusher, and both are quite different from a flotilla acting as a lifeboat and activation delay.  Any analysis based hull alone cannot evaluate how much variety exists in gameplay and fleet building.

 

In my inexpert opinion, a flotilla that is just passing an activation while running away from the battle isn't a good use of points - but I'm wrong about a lot of things.