Regionals Data - The Impact of Flotillas

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

5 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

@Ginkapo got some well-deserved pushback in the other flotilla complaining and counter-complaining thread for being unnecessarily abrasive and demeaning.

Whenever someone (I've done it, but I'm not the only one) suggests that @Blail Blerg's squadron problems are probably due to him just not being as good as his opponent, the thread explodes.

But when @Reinholt comes in and says "you see I've always felt you guys were stupid, but now you're an embarrassment" we all just kind of go "this is fine."

Whoa.

I read a thousand words by Skyshuffler and the "good" Doctor, and I miss this?  @Reinholt should report to the brig for "interrogation".

[Undeadguy 5,749]

6 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

@Ginkapo got some well-deserved pushback in the other flotilla complaining and counter-complaining thread for being unnecessarily abrasive and demeaning.

Whenever someone (I've done it, but I'm not the only one) suggests that @Blail Blerg's squadron problems are probably due to him just not being as good as his opponent, the thread explodes.

But when @Reinholt comes in and says "you see I've always felt you guys were stupid, but now you're an embarrassment" we all just kind of go "this is fine."

Glad I'm not the only one who is seeing this. But I guess we aren't world class players so we can't talk back.

Quote

One, to the git gud crowd: talk to me when you learn how to play. If Q or Jon R want to talk **** to me? Fine. But if you are not a world champion, quite bluntly, you are at best in the tier of many of the other good players on these forums (several of whom are chiming in on this thread) and you should not be talking down to them. An amusing trend is that often the people saying those lack creativity or don't know how to play in these threads are, in fact, garbage players compared to the people they are lecturing. JJ, Q, Indierockclimber, etc. are a lot more likely to be right than you are.

 

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

I don't know the West Coast Armada players well. I also know it's 7:30AM there right now, so west coasters can weigh in when they'd like to

If this is an "East Coast" meta, I'm happy to hear that the problem should work itself out! I do not suspect, however, that that's the case. Frankly, your response comes dangerously close to "git gud". I know your signature list has very little problem dealing with flotillas (you also include 3 in your list correct?). But "kill the relay ships" is one of those 'Sounds so easy!' fixes that rarely finds purchase on the table top.

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Oh, Dr Reinholdt. 

This has been a great discussion so far, let's try not to devolve into personal attacks. Looking at all of you! 

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

To further expand (sorry for the spam)

 

I HOPE this is just a weird meta issue that resolves itself. I won't put words in anyone else's mouth, but many of my friends who have been strong pillars in the community are in the same boat as me. Armada doesn't feel right at this moment. The symptoms are a homogenized meta, the inclusion of gamey mechanics, and auto-includes that stall the game rather than roll dice. Whatever the diagnosis is, the effect is a waning interest for many, myself included. Maybe that issue is widespread, maybe it isn't. I hope it isn't.

[Captain Weather 1,190]

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

With basically all of the most vocal anti-flotilla voices coming from the East Coast--and few dissenters--this is starting to sound a lot like an Eastern seaboard meta problem.

It's definitely a problem here in Australia so it's not just isolated to one meta. 

 

 

 

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

8 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

I don't know the West Coast Armada players well. I also know it's 7:30AM there right now, so west coasters can weigh in when they'd like to

If this is an "East Coast" meta, I'm happy to hear that the problem should work itself out! I do not suspect, however, that that's the case. Frankly, your response comes dangerously close to "git gud". I know your signature list has very little problem dealing with flotillas (you also include 3 in your list correct?). But "kill the relay ships" is one of those 'Sounds so easy!' fixes that rarely finds purchase on the table top.

The difference between "git gud" and "look at all of these options available to address this issue" is largely one of tone, and I was very careful not to say "everybody on the East Coast (also the good captain) is bad and they should feel bad." If I still came across that way, I do apologize, because I absolutely do have a lot of respect for a lot of the players over there who are disagreeing with me.

That said, there is definitely some kind of disconnect at play here, and I find that often that comes out of different experiences in the meta. I have no idea what might be driving that disconnect, but it's clearly there if so many good players on both sides are so absolutely convinced that they're right.

It's not even necessarily a question of who's better than whom--it could very easily just be that one guy who stumbled onto a play style that discourages a counterplay that's breaking everybody else's community. Which, if present, I agree is a shame and needs to be addressed. It's just hard to empathize when my own experiences don't match up with yours.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Sure, understood. And I definitely appreciate your thoughts. Apologies if I came off as snarky in return!

 

[GammonLord 324]

Flotillas are very much in strength here in the UK... but they're also going pop quite regularly as well. 

I would really love to preserve the taking it in turns to move pieces turn structure - going to a "i move my fleet, then you" mechanic ala 40K would lead to the game achieving levels of dullness even the most remotely placed lifeboat flotilla could not hope to achieve. 

Structurally the game is fine. Maybe a few tweaks to certain builds dominating the game? Happy with that.

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Agreed- I don't think anyone would suggest moving to a "you move everything" on your turn approach. That absolutely doesn't fit Armada!

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

9 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

Whatever the diagnosis is, the effect is a waning interest for many, myself included. 

This is troubling.  I drink the Armada kool-aid, and I don't see it here, but if others do, it sucks.  Hopefully it will work itself out.

One thing that I wondered: How has the Corellian Conflict impacted this?  I do find myself really hamstrung by 400 points after playing the epic-ness of 500 points and the possibility of a 1500 vs 1500 points clash.

Edited April 5, 2017 by CaribbeanNinja

[Englishpete 1,379]

One possible solution is for simultaneous activation of all ships. Everyone issues their commands, everyone shoots, then everyone moves, but that would need a fundamental rules revision.

[Snipafist 7,536]

11 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

Whatever the diagnosis is, the effect is a waning interest for many, myself included. Maybe that issue is widespread, maybe it isn't. I hope it isn't.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the same around me either (agreeing with @CaribbeanNinja). Our community is growing and becoming more enthusiastic and I'm seeing more events around Chicagoland (with some gains and some losses in other stores, which is fairly normal for most games, really).

You see 1-2 flotillas per side in most games around here and they're not viewed as a major problem by most. Relay shenanigans do show up on occasion but focusing fighters on eliminating the Relay squadron(s) becomes a priority and it's successful often enough that the Relay flotillas trick is viewed as unreliable-ish. The same skills that were honed in scalpeling out Intel squadrons earlier (...and presently) can be used similarly against Relay squadrons should it be necessary. Torp MC30s with H9s and CR90Bs with SW7s are gobbling up flotillas wherever they can find them (for Rebels). Imperials are also getting around to H9s and Captain Jonus. Intel Officer remains common on more dedicated combat vessels. Flotillas are just one of those things your fleet should have an answer to, similarly to how it needs an answer to heavy bomber fleets, durable large ships, and MSU fleets. It seems we'll be getting even more tools for dealing with flotillas come wave 6, with Boarding Troopers, Sloane, and ram-happy corvettes.

[draco193 491]

 

6 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

One thing that I wondered: How has the Corellian Conflict impacted this?  I do find myself really hamstrung by 400 points after playing the epic-ness of 500 points and the possibility of a 1500 vs 1500 points clash.

I almost feel like the campaign and the new tournament format were a possible precursor to a point cap increase. Let players run wild and see where things broke down and report here on their experiences. Lots of play testing can be done then with the most prevalent issues. 

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Good! I hope the game continues to grow. If it's a "me" problem with the current meta, and that continues to take root than I will accept that and move along peacefully I'm certainly not proclaiming Armada is doomed or that the sky is falling. Just sharing where my own head is. For the record, I am also incredibly hopeful as I truly believe the FAQ delay is a symptom of the Dev's taking a very serious look at the situation as I've described it. I have every confidence whatever fix they settle on will #MakeArmadaGreatAgain

To be quite Frank, I expect to be playing Armada for a long time to come- unless the game devolves into something I don't enjoy.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by WWPDSteven

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

I'm pretty sure we could avoid a lot of anger if we got updates faster than they change Colonel Sanders.

[Stasy 2,501]

54 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

I will be TO'ing Stele this Friday and I am really interested to see what hits the table. The 44 players attending should be a nice sample size.

I will be, somewhat reluctantly, bringing 2 flotillas in my Imperial list to Stele. I have not had luck with my (preferred) Rebel lists.

 

17 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

I don't know the West Coast Armada players well. I also know it's 7:30AM there right now, so west coasters can weigh in when they'd like to

If this is an "East Coast" meta, I'm happy to hear that the problem should work itself out! I do not suspect, however, that that's the case. Frankly, your response comes dangerously close to "git gud". I know your signature list has very little problem dealing with flotillas (you also include 3 in your list correct?). But "kill the relay ships" is one of those 'Sounds so easy!' fixes that rarely finds purchase on the table top.

I can confirm the Philly/South NJ meta is LOADED with flotillas, especially Imperials, for activation advantage.

 

I'm a little disheartened at the game, but I don't think because of the flotillas specifically. I mean it does really hamstring the list building. I can't imagine getting a list that works without at least 4 ship activations.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

1 minute ago, Stasy said:

I can't imagine getting a list that works without at least 4 ship activations.

I can't imagine playing a list without at least 5. Which will be made all the easier if the next wave has some low point cost ships.

[Reinholt 1,719]

A few more quick points:

 

1: I have seen the same waning interest here. Our last few tourneys have had lower attendance than usual and everyone is bringing a truckload of flotillas. The least I saw in any list over the weekend was 2, and we had one game where 11 ships were on the table and 7 of those 11 were flotillas. There were more flotillas than all other ships combined across my games. It's making the game boring and same-y.

 

2: For any saying it's an east coast meta problem, why does the regionals data say it is everywhere? In all metas, 4 activations and 5 activations, usually of the 2 ship / 2 flot or 2 ship / 3 flot variety dominates. That's not just on the east coast and the data indicates if you want to finish in the top 4, 80% of people did what I just said. That is an overwhelmingly dominant meta pick.

 

3: My lack of politeness stems from having repeatedly had people oppose statements that are factual in nature and bury their heads. Maybe your local meta doesn't see X, but when we have an alleged community shouting people down and denying flotillas should be looked at while flotillas are overwhelmingly the most common ship and slowly progressing to the point where they are over 50% of ships seen on the table, I'm growing less patient.

 

Again, the flotilla was a band-aid on a core rule problem and now the band-aid itself is driving the entire meta across regionals. I have predicted worlds will be the same: that is testable and we will find out. However, my point stands that a delay / stall / no gun ship has become the iconic fleet battle standard bearer for FFGs flagship fleet combat game.

 

This is the rough equivalent of if the Rhodian hired guns became over 50% of units on the table in IA and nobody ever fielded anything that fired a gun, swung a light saber, or said a line in a movie while the game degenerated to an infinite line of Rhodians firing second into the face of humanity, forever.

 

As Steve much more eloquently said: it's boring, it's same-y, and there is increasingly little reason to play the game, especially for new players.

 

 

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

Also wanted to throw out there, and this is somewhat reminiscent of a point made in the raging squadron wars of yesterweek, that the number of flotillas present in a list is a less useful measure than the number of points spent on them. Can you really say that your IIGzGz list is half flotillas when only 1/8 of your points went into them? It depends on the context, I guess, but calling that a 50% constraint in listbuilding overstates the problem pretty significantly. Not that anyone had said that explicitly, but it's come up a few times as the basis of complaints. edit: Whoops, looks like the doctor has made a liar of me.

 

The thing is, though, when it comes down to it, perception is reality in that if people are leaving the game because they believe it to be broken, something needs to be done to address that, regardless of whether or not the game is actually broken. If the solution to a pervasive meta force is too hard, too obscure, too specific, too un-fun, or whatever, such that whole swaths of people perceive it as problematic, the solution isn't a good one (I think somebody had a pithy name for this from Extra Credits, but I can't find it now).

Now, I have seen no evidence that this is the case. On the contrary, I have seen the exact opposite--we just had a newbie tournament with I think 9 or so players, two brand new guys showed up to Monday night Armada this week, and a couple of our old players have started playing again recently. This very board has been picking up new posters pretty consistently, and there are two Vassal Newbies Tournaments running right now that are partly populated with newcomers to the game at large.

If everybody else is hemorrhaging players, then FFG obviously has a problem to address. I don't see it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not there.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[shmitty 3,315]

2 hours ago, WWPDSteven said:

What I do think is Flotillas have done more harm than good for the game, but they've definitely done both. I also think the conclusions from Shmitty's data in this thread are not CONCLUSIONS. They are merely facts about flotilla usage.

That is true.  They are a nice reference point for the discussion.  There are some patterns there that can be used to support arguments.

2 hours ago, WWPDSteven said:

*The Flotilla "Problem". I think Shmitty's data shows clearly that Flotillas are important because they allow any fleet to compete in the activations game. Others above have pointed out that they are a response to MSU. I think that's true! I think the unintended side effect, however, is that they are almost an absolute necessity right now, and Shmitty's data shows that as well. We got the good with the bad. Great that large ships can compete (although rarely is it more than 1...) which has led to the weird homogenous meta.

If you and I disagree it is here.  I just don't see a homogeneous meta at all since the flotilla arrived.  Yes nearly every fleet has one, but a couple of small support ships do not make a meta homogeneous.  The sheer variety of of combinations of ships that come with those flotillas in successful fleets has been awesome.  I see no evidence of a large-scale homogeneous meta.

Anyways, I appreciate your well thought out responses.  Just not seeing the same things that you are.

59 minutes ago, WWPDSteven said:

@CaribbeanNinja I'm not sure it would dramatically alter the first player/second player dynamic. First player would STILL have the first activation option. Second player would still get to use their objective. In IA the first player/second player dynamic works pretty well in terms of picking ideal starting location.

Many many games do things very differently. In many of those games, they don't face quite the same situation as Armada. Numerous many games don't even have alternating activations, but rather IGOUGO where you complete everything then your opponent does everything. Many of those types of games also feature an overwatch mechanic, and/or a move/shoot rather than shoot move. Often a moving shot is at disadvantage.

I play a lot of different games and strongly prefer games with alternating activations.  Activation advantage is a thing in every one of them.  It is just part of the mechanic.  Each of them handle it in different ways, but in every case the game can still be balanced with activations providing an advantage.

Alternating activations provides an awesome set of decisions that impact the course of the game.  Those decision points are part of what I think makes Armada a tactically challenging game.

[WWPDSteven 2,215]

Quote

I play a lot of different games and strongly prefer games with alternating activations.  Activation advantage is a thing in every one of them.  It is just part of the mechanic.  Each of them handle it in different ways, but in every case the game can still be balanced with activations providing an

I agree- I am definitely not advocating Armada move away from an alternating activation paradigm. My own personal preference does, however, lean towards the IA solution of allowing a player with less remaining ship activations to pass. I have play-tested that and it worked swimmingly.

I think tactical choices for activations are fun. I think obvious activations to stall the inevitable are not actually tactical considerations. Flotilla delay in activation order, relay back of the board aren't really interesting tactical choices in my opinion!

 

[Reinholt 1,719]

On count vs. points:

 

Activations are done by count, not points, and playing time is consumed by count, not points (as in, if I take 8 flotillas, they don't take the same amount of time to activate as one X-mad tree ISD - I meant to say X-mas but I'm leaving this here in honor of madaghmire -,even if they are the same points), though the latter is not precisely one to one as in the first case, though still close.

 

When we talk about how the game plays, taking Rhymer and 13 tie bombers would not be a "small" commitment because it's only 1/3rd of your points.

 

Points can be a useful metric but I suggest the fact that FFG did not build in a base activation cost to the flotilla is actually part of the problem; if they were all more expensive this might be less of an issue, though still an issue.

 

Edit: Ha! I had not seen Ard's post since I was on my phone. I would say points are useful but not the whole story. If a ship was commont but not insanely so (e.g. most lists had one flotilla) that would be fine. I think the real problem is even with low points, if something is becoming 50% of the occurrences and dramatically influencing the behavior of higher point ships, it's notable. More than half of all ships being flotillas tells me something is wrong.

 

Put differently: "it's only 10 or 8 points, that's so minor, why do you all talk about Demolisher and Admonition?" is not a valid argument.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Reinholt

[Undeadguy 5,749]

7 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

flotillas are overwhelmingly the most common ship and slowly progressing to the point where they are over 50% of ships seen on the table

So I agree with what you are saying, but don't agree with how you are presenting it.

Flotillas are becoming quite abundant and I do think it's quite boring when Admo/Defiance+3 flotillas is a top level fleet. It's become a rinse/repeat issue. And I just admitted I can't imagine playing without 5 activaitons. So yes, flotillas are everywhere.

 

Sure, a 2 Goz, 2 ISD I fleet has 50% flotillas, but it also has 50% ISDs. Does that have any merit?

To put another way, the Gozs are 11.5% of your fleet cost, and the ISDs are 55%. 

[GammonLord 324]

26 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Also wanted to throw out there, and this is somewhat reminiscent of a point made in the raging squadron wars of yesterweek, that the number of flotillas present in a list is a less useful measure than the number of points spent on them. Can you really say that your IIGzGz list is half flotillas when only 1/8 of your points went into them? It depends on the context, I guess, but calling that a 50% constraint in listbuilding overstates the problem pretty significantly. Not that anyone had said that explicitly, but it's come up a few times as the basis of complaints. edit: Whoops, looks like the doctor has made a liar of me.

This. So True. Im taking a 5 ship fleet with squads to an event on Saturday with 3 flotillas in it. Together with kit the 3 cost 62 points. One of MC30s alone is 96, the Squads are 88 points (hell, Mothma accounts for 30). I lost all three playing last night at my local club yet won the game (anecdotal i know, but illustrative).  I think flotillas are maybe becoming the latest boogie man similar to the likes of Demolisher, Ackbar etc before it.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by GammonLord