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dertarr

Do various effects stack?

9 posts in this topic

Hi,

I've got a situation during resent session. A mercenary with Strength and Toughness of 4 goes into "Berzerker Rage!", so that his Strength and Toughness are treated to be 1 higher for any check he makes with them. In the same time our party priest has blessed him with "Sigmar's Strength", so that he gains further 1 Strength and 1 Toughness.

So, would those two bonuses stack (and the Warrior would effectively have 6 Strength and 6 Toughness), or do they not (so that he remains with 5 Strength and 5 Toughness)?

For now I houseruled that the first effect would work as expected but the second effect would result in +1 fortune die instead. Is there anywhere some official record on this matter?

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I do believe that they stack, which makes it quite a powerful combination.

But in a combat situation, it comes at the cost of two actions that could have been attacks instead, and while +2 Strenght +2 Toughness is nice, as combats are relatively short in WFRP in terms of how many turns they take. So spending a turn is quite a large "cost" in itself. The enemies could do a lot with that extra time.

I have a character with berzerker rage, and I'm not so sure that the action used to activate berzerk is "worth it" in terms of damage output, if the character had used the action for another attack instead she might make more damage in total. But obviously it depends a bit on what you're fighting. The same logic goes for Sigmar's Strength, so I bhink lowering the bonus to one fortune is a bit harsh. :) 

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Well, combats we have usually last some 4 to 7 rounds in general. It usually takes some 3-4 hits to eliminate an enemy. With Berzerker Rage the mercenary adds +3 to all damage (he has only 3 reckless stance tokens yet), has increased "to hit" probability which also results in better damage. Since he is a target of at least a couple of attacks each round, he also benefits from increased Toughness - that may mean he would last one round more than usual. So using that card well worth it.

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I agree they look like they stack - though Berserker Rage only gives the stat bonus on 2 boons so it's not a guarantee, it's more about the damage bonus for stance - and WP is not always a fighter's best stat, so I think the fact it takes an action and then the priest must also take an action (using lots of Favour).

It does make a classic reckless Trollslayer and Sigmarite priest a nice team.

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I agree that the card is (often) worth it, but I still feel that using an action is part of the card "cost".

In a short combat (4 turns) as you say it takes 25% of that characters actions to activate, and it either takes a few turns or some stress to get into 3 reckless stance for the full damage bonus. In a longer combat (7 turns) it's still almost 15% of the characters actions during that combat.
From memory I don't know how recharge tokens Berzerker rage and Sigmar's Strength gets, but in a longer combat you might need to activate them again if you want to keep the bonuses.

So depending on how what enemies you face, how many there are and their stats, it might be a good action to use, or it could be overkill, or make no difference at all.

An simple example with only the Mercenary fighting one enemy:
Mercernary: Strenght 4, hand weapon (5 dmg).
Enemy: Toughness 4, 12 wounds.
I'm assuming basic success and no special actions other than Berzerker rage.

Option 1:
Turn 1: Activate berzerker rage and get +1 strength. Go 1 into reckless. (0 damage)
Turn 2: Go 2nd step into reckless. Attack and hit 4+1+5+2-4 (8 damage)
Turn 3: Go 3d step into reckless. Attack and hit 4+1+5+3-4 (9 damage)
Enemy dead turn 3

Option 2:
Turn 1: Attack and hit 4+5-4 (5 damage)
Turn 2: Attack and hit 4+5-6 (5 damage)
Turn 3: Attack and hit 4+5-6 (5 damage)
Enemy dead turn 3

Sure, the +1str increases chance to hit and the chance to get +2 damage on the melee strike. But even assuming +2 damage result in option 1 the bad guy would go down turn 3. Adding +1 str from a blessing to option 1, would still mean enemy death turn 3.

Certainly, this is only one example. Changing wounds, soak, toughness of the enemy etc. could make berzerker rage the better option. But it could also make not using berzerker rage a better option.
It depends a lot on what enemy you're fighting. But loosing a player turn or two in the case of activating both actions is a considerable cost, not to mention that the players paid XP (or used creation points)  for Berzerker Rage and Sigmar's Strength.

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Yeah, I agree with the others here. They should simply stack. Using two Actions to get it up and running is quite a high cost. I have had players with Berzerk and similar buffs that seldom use them, since it's more effective to just kill the enemies instead of wasting time buffing.

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Ok. In reality the Mercenary uses Greatsword with DR 7.
He has two ranks of training in WS and one rank in Discipline (as Discipline is used quite a lot he invested in training it).
First round he shifts to +1 reckless, does Berzerker range that usually boosts him to another +1 reckless.
Second round he shifts ti yet another +1 reckless and he uses Reckless Cleave that deals 4 (STR) + 1 (STR bonus) + 3(reckless bonus) + 7(DR) + 3(Reckless Cleave improved line) + 4(Reckless cleave boon line) -5 (average toughness+SV) to an impressive total of 17 damage. And having another +1 STR from Sigmar's Strength gives better chance for all that and +2 more damage.

But that is probably another story of a Reckless Cleave guy.
And perhaps you are right on the thing that they do need to invest two actions for that so perhaps the bonus worth it.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, in your example it would be like:

Option 1: (as you described)
Turn 1: Berzerker Rage + Reckless
Turn 2: 17 damage as per your count above.
Total damage after soak after turn 2 = 17 (or 19 with bonuses from Sigmar's Strength)

Option 2:
Turn 1: Reckless Cleave: 4+7+3+4-5 = 13 damage
Turn 2: Melee strike (or another better attack): at least 4+7+2-5=8 damage
Total damage after soak after turn 2 = 13+8=21

In option 2 I'm assuming that a character with 2 trainings in WS, a strenght of 4 and probably a shift into reckless stance he'll probably hit the improved success and boon lines on Reckless Cleave and Melee Strike without the strength boost.

Again, it's highly dependant on enemy soak. Against a high soak + high toughness monster would be much better to attack with Berzerker Rage and Sigmar's Strenght as you want to do high damage to negate their soak. But while fighting humans, goblins or even orcs, with lower toughness and soak it might be better to attack without. My example guy (T4 and 12 wounds) would be dead in the first turn with option 2, and would leave the mercenary open to do damage on another enemy in turn 2. Not to mention that the priest of Sigmar would also have an attack in the first turn instead of using a buff. 

With a recharge of 4 (Berzerker rage) a longer fight forces you to use the action again if you want to keep the bonus. Which costs another turn.

Lastly, the Berzerker Rage boon line actually says: "While this card is recharging, your Strength and Toughness characteristics are treated as 1 higher for any checks you make using them."
Sigmar's Strenght wording is: "You and all your allies within close range gain 1 Strength and 1 Toughness."
So it could be that Berzerker Rage wouldn't increase strength for damage calculation with the boon line, meaning you'd "only" do 16 damage in your example. The same goes for the increase from toughness, soak is not a check. :) 

Edited by k7e9
added some stuff about soak
valvorik likes this

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Oh that's a good point about Berserker Rage only being checks - doesn't change damage or toughness soak/when Fatigue (likely if you're rolling lots of Reckless dice) overtakes you.

k7e9 likes this

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