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Cargo hold rules question

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New battlefield form Spirit of Rebellion says "Move upgrade from one character to another character same player controls" So it opens whole can of worms.

1 If you move upgrade to a character who already has 3 upgrades does his controller have to discard one of those upgrades (so its kinda limited removal) ?

2 If you move upgrade with die still in pool to already exhausted character does it stay in pool or is it removed from pool?

3 Can you move upgrades to characters who couldn't have them (like wingman on non red character, or any blue force upgrade)?

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10 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

I would say that it doesn't stay in the pool. It would work the same as redeploy.

Why? The Redeploy rules specifically say to put the die on the new character. Does this battlefield say that? When a character is defeated with One With the Force, the OWtF die stays in the die pool if already there. 

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On the Destiny Facebook page we're thinking that this trick can be utilized to put Training on an FO Stormtrooper, then claim this battlefield to move it to your non-elite, 21pt Palpatine, effectively turning him into ePalpatine in the middle of the game. So like...unique characters like Vader and Palpatine can now be upgraded to elite versions, from regular versions, during a game. Ain't that silly?

Good times.

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18 minutes ago, CBMarkham said:

On the Destiny Facebook page we're thinking that this trick can be utilized to put Training on an FO Stormtrooper, then claim this battlefield to move it to your non-elite, 21pt Palpatine, effectively turning him into ePalpatine in the middle of the game. So like...unique characters like Vader and Palpatine can now be upgraded to elite versions, from regular versions, during a game. Ain't that silly?

Good times.

What happens if your opponent does this to you, and you don't own a second Palpatine or Vader die?

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10 minutes ago, striatic said:

What happens if your opponent does this to you, and you don't own a second Palpatine or Vader die?

That was actually the question of the original post, which spawned the discovery. 

...we're not really sure. We just kind of assume you can't gain the benefit.

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Training says "attached character is elite" so turning unique character into elite version should work this way.  Second chance for Luke anyone?

That battlefield is a real mess.:ph34r:

Edited by NetCop

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1 hour ago, Docile said:

Why? The Redeploy rules specifically say to put the die on the new character. Does this battlefield say that? When a character is defeated with One With the Force, the OWtF die stays in the die pool if already there. 

Because it becomes a support . You may have missed that. This thing is allowing the other  player to redeploy your cards as an interrupt

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1 hour ago, CBMarkham said:

On the Destiny Facebook page we're thinking that this trick can be utilized to put Training on an FO Stormtrooper, then claim this battlefield to move it to your non-elite, 21pt Palpatine, effectively turning him into ePalpatine in the middle of the game. So like...unique characters like Vader and Palpatine can now be upgraded to elite versions, from regular versions, during a game. Ain't that silly?

Good times.

Move any high cost upgrade to a character that is about to die and then kill it the next round. Sounds like that's just what they were thinking, as messed up as that may be.

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1.  yes it forcesyou to choose which 3 you want to keep

2. When you claim this battlefield,  your turn is over. Why does it matter if your die stays in the pool? I would want it gone because of Force Throw.

3. I would think it follows the restrictions. The question is are you playing this when it is being moved. Not sure how that one will be ruled

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15 minutes ago, Rogue 4 said:

1.  yes it forcesyou to choose which 3 you want to keep

2. When you claim this battlefield,  your turn is over. Why does it matter if your die stays in the pool? I would want it gone because of Force Throw.

3. I would think it follows the restrictions. The question is are you playing this when it is being moved. Not sure how that one will be ruled

When you claim this battlefield, YOUR turn is over, but your opponent's turn is ongoing. If you move one of your opponent's upgrades to one of their other, likely already activated characters (read the card) they can do other stuff with the die if it stays in the pool but the die is effectively dead if it returns to a character.

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There's no rule for 'move' so this definitely requires FAQ. It isnt redeploy. I'll be playing it as the die stays in the pool until officially ruled otherwise.

The battlefield is just silly. Can get you double use on attachments, can remove attachments, can break play restrictions. It's just crazy. 

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16 hours ago, ozmodon said:

Because it becomes a support . You may have missed that. This thing is allowing the other  player to redeploy your cards as an interrupt

But they aren't redeploying it, they are moving it.

Redeploy triggers after a character is defeated, as a part of being defeated all it's character and upgrade dice are removed from the pool. That is why the redeployed card's die goes back to the card when it moves.

One With The Force Triggers before the character is defeated, so the die isn't removed because when the character is defeated OWTF isn't attached to it as an upgrade anymore.

This is neither of those situations. However, there is nothing happening during a move that indicates the die should be removed.

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The closest thing (and it isn't very close from a game play mechanic perspective) is Willpower - move 1 damage from an exhausted character to another exhausted character.  Not that damage has play restrictions but the fact that it happens behind shields (move, not deal) kind of indicates to me that it just happens without regard to 'normal game effects' so to speak.  Also would like an FAQ on this but I don't see any issue moving Training Ground to a yellow or blue character based on just the wording of the battleground.  The other side of the coin is that Sith Holocron does say 'this ignores play restrictions' so maybe that is the missing piece of clarity on the battleground here.  Could be good or insane depending on how this is ruled.

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I wish they would pay more attention to upgrade types and be consistent. 

This thing should only be able to move Equipment and Weapons, that would probably clear up most of the weird interactions outside of play restrictions (which I think is pretty clear, but the RR could be updated).

It makes no sense that it can work on abilities. 

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I interpreted the card as similar to Grievous'. Looks to me like people are just looking for cheap game breakers that aren't there...Could be wrong though.

The card doesn't say 'ignoring play restrictions' as Finn's does. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you could have four upgrades or stick Training on a unique character, when it specifically says 'non-unique red character only'.

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3 minutes ago, Piscettios said:

 

I interpreted the card as similar to Grievous'. Looks to me like people are just looking for cheap game breakers that aren't there...Could be wrong though.

The card doesn't say 'ignoring play restrictions' as Finn's does. So I'm not sure why anyone would think you could have four upgrades or stick Training on a unique character, when it specifically says 'non-unique red character only'.

I agree that you wouldn't be able to have 4 upgrades on a character, but play restrictions only matter when putting the upgrade into play and this card only moves an upgrade already in play. So it's not ignoring play restrictions per say, because they were already met when the card was played.

Page 19 of the Rules Reference. 

PLAY RESTRICTIONS

Play restrictions sometimes appear on a card and are marked by the word “only.” A player cannot play the card unless the play restriction is met. Upgrade cards sometimes say “(Color) character only”. If a player does not have a character of that color to attach the upgrade to, the upgrade cannot be played.

• Upgrades do not get removed from a character if the play restriction is no longer fulfilled. The character must only fulfill the play restriction when the card is first played.

 

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FFG has already made it pretty clear that play restrictions for a card only occur when the card is in play. Otherwise, Sith Holocron would allow you to play a 'Blue Character Only' upgrade on a non-blue only to have the passive effect of 'Blue Character Only' trigger as soon as the Sith Holocron resolved, forcing you to then remove the card. Move isn't the same as play, so it wouldn't follow play restrictions. I don't think anyone is reading into a card and trying to break it. FFG made a broken card (as in playing against intent, not over-powered) if they do not spell out its intent in an FAQ.

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A fair amount of this is covered pretty well in the rules.

Each character cannot have more than 3 upgrades. If a character ever has more than 3 upgrades, the player who controls it must choose and discard upgrades from it until it only has 3.

You can move to a character who already has 3, and the controller will have to choose one to discard.

Does the die stay in the pool?  Yes.  Nothing removes it, nothing changes the state of the die, so it just sits there.  Redeploy removes the die because of the timing - redeploy is an After effect, so it only triggers after you remove everything due to the character being defeated.  The explicit text to remove the die is honestly redundant.

Does it respect play restrictions?  No.  Play restrictions are explicitly only when the card is played, and this is moving.  (netherspirit quotes the rules for this one above).

Is it a stupid card that's going to cause more confusion than Cunning?  Yes.  Yes it is.

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But as you highlighted most of what is being discussed is actually already in the rules, people just can't connect the dots or are outright unaware.

The issue of not having the second die available isn't something that would be covered by the rules themselves, but the tournament rules themselves.

It's just the type of card that some gamers feel is "wrong" thus they invent a bunch of reasons to justify the wrongness that aren't actually present in the rules.

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I just think that the card is underclarified. I think that switching stuff around is ok, but it should have said "equipment" or "weapon".... switching abilities is just crazy. I also think that discarding an opponent's upgrade is massively OP. I know we all hate how quickly Rey fills up her allotted number of upgrades, or how evil Vader is with tons of nasty lightsabers and mind probes, and we'd love to get rid of one, but this clearly is not what the card intended. I think that the fact that is says "move" rather than "redeploy" requires clarification, as no other effects currently "move" cards, so it's not in the rules. I'm willing to bet you can't move it to a character who has three already.

So, my answers are

1. Unclear, but probably no due to a later FAQ.

2. Yes, the dice stays in the pool. When redeploy removes dice it's only because the character was defeated.

3. Right now, yes. It's kind of like an ultimate holocron that way. They might FAQ later, but right now, it does in fact move Crime Lord to Veers once Jango starts losing health, and it moves Mind Probe from Rey to Han, as well as moving your opponent's Vader's Sith Lightning to a Tusken Raider who only has 1 hit point left.

Just a note, knowing FFG and CCGs in general, it's probably not that powerful because it's a common. As of yet, legendary battlefields don't exist.

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21 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

 but this clearly is not what the card intended.

Really?  Care to cite something for that?

Upgrade removal/denial is honestly something that the game needs more of.  What there is at the moment is either temporary (Confiscation) or has steep requirements and limited targets (Disarm).  This functions as removal in limited situations, and is something which can be played around in so very many ways.

"Screws with an overused character" != broken.

 

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48 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

The issue of not having the second die available isn't something that would be covered by the rules themselves, but the tournament rules themselves.

I disagree with this a bit.  If the core game can introduce unexpected component requirements, then the core game should have something in place to define how they work.

 

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