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Sir Orrin

Reinforce? really?

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Making a card ineffective with one upgrade? HotCoP versus R5P9.

But there are ways around it. Ensuring that the two carriers don't shoot at each other, and doubling up on focus tokens (through cards like pilot Kyle, Jyn Erso, etc).

how does TLT around Reinforce?

Edited by SabineKey

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It uses its primary weapons instead.  Or its missiles.  Or its bombs.  Or its allies.

Black One versus Omega Leader, Boba Fett crew versus... well, anything... etc.

There are plenty of hard counters in this game, what's one more?

Because there is always limitations to a hard counter. Black One is one title that can go on a limit amount of pilots. Boba Fett requires a specific trigger and is done. Wookiee Gunships can be spammed, meaning you can face entire lists of them, making a TLT entirely a waste of points. 

As for using other things instead, I would like to remind you of the HWKs attack value and lack of other secondary weapons. Also, the "it's allies" suggestion doesn't seem to buck up people who dislike Kylo Ren, so why should it be a point here?

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16 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Because there is always limitations to a hard counter. Black One is one title that can go on a limit amount of pilots. Boba Fett requires a specific trigger and is done. Wookiee Gunships can be spammed, meaning you can face entire lists of them, making a TLT entirely a waste of points. 

As for using other things instead, I would like to remind you of the HWKs attack value and lack of other secondary weapons. Also, the "it's allies" suggestion doesn't seem to buck up people who dislike Kylo Ren, so why should it be a point here?

Honestly...

I think you're slightly overreacting to something of a jokey comment.

I probably shouldn't have taken it so seriously.

I apologise for that.

But... If your list relies on TLTs to do damage, and one possible list blocks it completely... maybe don't rely on TLTs to do damage.  There are other turrets.  You can choose to use them.  Or not spam them.

And as regards Kylo... yes, you have other ships is perfectly viable as an argument.  Kylo is at his strongest against two-ship lists, and a lot of the discussion at the time was about how he might be intended to limit the number of two-ship lists in the meta, for just that reason.

I said 'its allies' specifically, because I was intending to imply that this might be a reason not to rely solely on a single upgrade.  If you have a list that's broken if its TLTs don't work, it's probably not a viable list, because there are plenty of good lists that counter TLTs pretty hard.

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14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Honestly...

I think you're slightly overreacting to something of a jokey comment.

I probably shouldn't have taken it so seriously.

I apologise for that.

But... If your list relies on TLTs to do damage, and one possible list blocks it completely... maybe don't rely on TLTs to do damage.  There are other turrets.  You can choose to use them.  Or not spam them.

And as regards Kylo... yes, you have other ships is perfectly viable as an argument.  Kylo is at his strongest against two-ship lists, and a lot of the discussion at the time was about how he might be intended to limit the number of two-ship lists in the meta, for just that reason.

I said 'its allies' specifically, because I was intending to imply that this might be a reason not to rely solely on a single upgrade.  If you have a list that's broken if its TLTs don't work, it's probably not a viable list, because there are plenty of good lists that counter TLTs pretty hard.

That's the thing. I don't spam them. The most I've ever used in a list is two (and not just because I only bought one K-Wing pack). I primarily use them on HWKs, who have to have a turret to reliably contribute to damage output. Yes, I rely on them for damage output, just as K-Wings rely on bombs, or U-Boats rely on torps. As for the other turrets, I could give you a laundry list on why they aren't up to snuff, but I'll just go with the TLT's longer range make it a more desireable option for me. 

No list completely denies the damage of a secondary weapon. Why should the TLT be exempt from that? It has weaknesses and should, but completely denying it from doing damage is too far. 

I understand what you said was meant in jest, but I keep seeing that view pop up and based on current options, I find it ridiculous and extreme. I am sorry you are getting the brunt of this.

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Because TLTs are super unfun (and I play them myself on occasion, just to avoid that argument), and I have no particular objection to something outright stopping them working, against one ship type which has plenty of other vulnerabilities.

I don't genuinely think it should work that way without some change to TLTs to make it not block them completely.

But then, I don't think TLTs should work the way they do currently, for reasons I've gone into in other threads and which would be WAY off-topic in this thread so maybe we can leave it at that.  I'd certainly be happy to.

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because TLTs are super unfun (and I play them myself on occasion, just to avoid that argument), and I have no particular objection to something outright stopping them working, against one ship type which has plenty of other vulnerabilities.

I don't genuinely think it should work that way without some change to TLTs to make it not block them completely.

But then, I don't think TLTs should work the way they do currently, for reasons I've gone into in other threads and which would be WAY off-topic in this thread so maybe we can leave it at that.  I'd certainly be happy to.

Agree to disagree. Fair.

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6 hours ago, SabineKey said:

The problem with that is because of Reinforce's constant nature, saying it blocks one damage means a TLT does no damage what so ever with its double tap. 

and that's not a problem. For me the theme behind TLT is that it spits out so many shots that one of them catches a highly maneuverable ship through accuracy by volume but does little damage (hence lots of dice but capped at 2 facedown damage). Reinforce is not dodging the shots but strengthening the defenses to better absorb the damage to a point where it is only superficial protecting the crew, vital systems and overall structure.

TLT as of now is so versatile having a ship with a feature that makes it immune would not be a bad thing. Also with reinforce the ship won't be 100% immune as it can still be outflanked to the side that is not reinforced. Also TLT doesn't act like the outrider title so against a reinforce side there is still the ship's primary weapons.

So if Reinforce was errata to block 1 damage instead of cancel 1 hit it would not cancel out TLT completely. There is still plenty of work around a ship with TLT can do to either inflict damage exceeding the reinforce or even employ TLT effectively against a ship under the reinforce action by outflanking it. Again you are only thinking 1-dimensionally. Put some vectors in your calculations, your math will fit much better when you do.

Edited by Marinealver

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2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

and that's not a problem. For me the theme behind TLT is that it spits out so many shots that one of them catches a highly maneuverable ship through accuracy by volume but does little damage (hence lots of dice but capped at 2 facedown damage). Reinforce is not dodging the shots but strengthening the defenses to better absorb the damage to a point where it is only superficial protecting the crew, vital systems and overall structure.

TLT as of now is so versatile having a ship with a feature that makes it immune would not be a bad thing. Also with reinforce the ship won't be 100% immune as it can still be outflanked to the side that is not reinforced. Also TLT doesn't act like the outrider title so against a reinforce side there is still the ship's primary weapons.

So if Reinforce was errata to block 1 damage instead of cancel 1 hit it would not cancel out TLT completely. There is still plenty of work around a ship with TLT can do to either inflict damage exceeding the reinforce or even employ TLT effectively against a ship under the reinforce action by outflanking it. Again you are only thinking 1-dimensionally. Put some vectors in your calculations, your math will fit much better when you do.

The arc needed for the Reinforce is a fair point, but I don't think it is enough. With the 180 arc on a small base, I think it is going to be fairly easy for competent players to keep the reinforced side to the TLT (thinking of single use). Plus, it still negates all the damage rather than ups the chance of evading. I am still unconvinced TLTs requires that kind of predator when no other secondary weapon does. 

Also, that token is basically a multiuse evade. Why make it stronger?

Edited by SabineKey

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10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

 

The arc needed for the Reinforce is a fair point, but I don't think it is enough. With the 180 arc on a small base, I think it is going to be fairly easy for competent players to keep the reinforced side to the TLT (thinking of single use). Plus, it still negates all the damage rather than ups the chance of evading. I am still unconvinced TLTs requires that kind of predator when no other secondary weapon does. 

Also, that token is basically a multiuse evade. Why make it stronger?

because for the most part huge ships don't have evades. However you do bring up a good point now that I supposed FFG is going to limit it for standard ships that meet 2 different criteria

  1. Ships with 180 Aux arcs
  2. Ships with low (<2) agility

Anything else would not only have to bring in pages of clarifications and errata but also risk bring back defensive power creep and the meta swinging back into the tank cycle. 

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3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

because for the most part huge ships don't have evades. However you do bring up a good point now that I supposed FFG is going to limit it for standard ships that meet 2 different criteria

  1. Ships with 180 Aux arcs
  2. Ships with low (<2) agility

Anything else would not only have to bring in pages of clarifications and errata but also risk bring back defensive power creep and the meta swinging back into the tank cycle. 

I wouldn't be surprised don't see another use of Reinforce in standard play until well after the Auzituck hits the meta, to see how it does. Definitely keep it on low agi ships. Have been considering the idea of some ships with standard arcs being allowed to take them in just their front arc (B-wings, for example), but unsure of how much help that would be.

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12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I wouldn't be surprised don't see another use of Reinforce in standard play until well after the Auzituck hits the meta, to see how it does. Definitely keep it on low agi ships. Have been considering the idea of some ships with standard arcs being allowed to take them in just their front arc (B-wings, for example), but unsure of how much help that would be.

Yeah on other arcs is where you start to have the biggest problems.

Standard firing arcs will have 3 sides covered, Mobile Firing arcs and Rear firing arcs will end up with some funky patterns, and putting it on a 360 PWT will cause all the sworn interceptor pilots to burn their collection like bunch of Dark Elves seeing Sigmar.

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3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah on other arcs is where you start to have the biggest problems.

Standard firing arcs will have 3 sides covered, Mobile Firing arcs and Rear firing arcs will end up with some funky patterns, and putting it on a 360 PWT will cause all the sworn interceptor pilots to burn their collection like bunch of Dark Elves seeing Sigmar.

Yeah, when it comes to other arc types, the only thing that works out is to keep it out the front arc only and not deal with aft Reinforcing at all. Except maybe the mobile Arc. If they make a special mod or something to give the Reinforce token for wherever the mobile arc is pointing, that might be interesting. 

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Another thing to consider is that they are packing two Reinforce tokens in the Auzituck.

Which means that one of the unique pilots either can reinforce someone else, or can reinforce both of its sides.

In the later case, fuggedaboutit.

 

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3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Another thing to consider is that they are packing two Reinforce tokens in the Auzituck.

Which means that one of the unique pilots either can reinforce someone else, or can reinforce both of its sides.

In the later case, fuggedaboutit.

 

Well, one of crew I believe is called "Breech Specialist" refers to a Reinforce token in its text, so that is probably the reason for the extra Reinforce token. But it also dealing with a pilots ability might also work, depending on the full wording of the crew.

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14 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah on other arcs is where you start to have the biggest problems.

Standard firing arcs will have 3 sides covered, Mobile Firing arcs and Rear firing arcs will end up with some funky patterns, and putting it on a 360 PWT will cause all the sworn interceptor pilots to burn their collection like bunch of Dark Elves seeing Sigmar.

 

I suspect they won't make it available outside the aussie truck (and that the second token is for a pilot who can assign the token to both halves, or for the Bre... Spec... which seems to involve putting a reinforce token on a damage card, (which makes it weird that it requires a reinforce token specifically, I'm intrigued to see how that one works), and if they do, I very much doubt it will be the action just on its own, I suspect it'll be just able to reinforce using one side of the token only - e.g. an x-wing (or Punisher) might get 'deflectors to double front - action: assign a reinforce token set to 'front' to your ship'.  Or at least, they might if fricking Biggs didn't exist.

I honestly don't think there would be many ships with 0 or 1 agility for which a mod that gave Reinforce would be a problem - because it's an *action*.  Actions are incredibly valuable on basically every single 1-agi ship except Rey, and typically increasing their cost is also something that's held at a huge premium because of how quickly they die.

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6 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah on other arcs is where you start to have the biggest problems.

Standard firing arcs will have 3 sides covered, Mobile Firing arcs and Rear firing arcs will end up with some funky patterns, and putting it on a 360 PWT will cause all the sworn interceptor pilots to burn their collection like bunch of Dark Elves seeing Sigmar.

I really don't think that arcs other than 180 will cause a problem. The only thing that I think might be problematic is a ship with a turret and just a primary firing arc. As long as you can't shoot at ships outside of your arc, the large out of arc coverage won't be overpowered.

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12 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I really don't think that arcs other than 180 will cause a problem. The only thing that I think might be problematic is a ship with a turret and just a primary firing arc. As long as you can't shoot at ships outside of your arc, the large out of arc coverage won't be overpowered.

but then again without additional restrictions or errata on reinforce as it moves from huge ships to the small and large ships you may end up with exactly that.

A Y-wing doesn't have a 360 firing arc but give it the reinforce along with TLT and you got something just as bad if not worse. 

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