Dash Rendar Pilot Clarification on Obstacles in Combat Step

[jmswood 2,706]

1 minute ago, D00kies said:

@jmswood Are you saying that Dash couldn't Snap Shot then? He's ignoring obstacles. I think you're hung up on the look and not the mechanics.

I'm not saying Dash can't use Snap Shot. I am saying Dash never suffers the ill effects of an overlap after the timing window for those effects is past. I don't know what "hung up on the look" means. I understand the mechanics just fine. The rules of the game never apply a game effect after the timing is past. There are card abilities that depend on earlier game effects, but Dash is not one of these. 

[nigeltastic 3,808]

@D00kies The game, players, and ships still know that the obstacles exists even if Dash ignores them. 

If you want something interesting, the question of 'Does Dash with snap-shot shoot obstructed shots?' is actually somewhat hazy. My suspicions is a) who cares because that would be bad and b) it still is because even though Dash ignores it the game state and defender don't.

If you don't believe the collective thought about how Dash works, feel free to ask FFG themselves: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Edited March 30, 2017 by nigeltastic

[WWHSD 9,273]

11 hours ago, D00kies said:

Why should he overlap if they are ignored? If there comes to be an effect that affects ships overlapping obstacles during the Activation phase, would he be considered? I don't think he would as he's ignoring the obstacle and it's mechanics.

Dash is able to ignore obstacles but the game state doesn't ignore them. The overlap still occurs during the activation phase. Dash is just able to ignore it because of his ability. Dash is already overlapping when the combat phase begins so the "after overlapping" trigger doesn't apply at that time. 

When you place Han on an obstacle during setup, he overlaps and applies the effect at the time that the overlap happens.  The important thing about the Han Solo FAQ entry is that it sets the precedent that things trigger and are resolved as usual during setup.  

[Tvboy 3,529]

There seems to be a gross misinterpretation of the word "after" at play here.

Here is the FAQ entry being used as justification:

* After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
    * Asteroid: The ship rolls 1 attack die. On a result, it suffers one damage; on a result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks.
    * Debris Cloud: The ship receives 1 stress token. Then, the ship rolls 1 attack die. On a result, it suffers one critical damage." 

"After" does not mean "anytime in the game after this thing happens", it means "now or never". For example, if a Defender with the X7 title ends its maneuver within range 1 of Carnor Jax and then Carnor moves away, The Defender doesn't then retroactively get its free evade action. In the same way, the effect that triggers after Dash moves into an obstacle is not retroactively applied after his ability turns off at a later point in the game.

I bolded the words After and While to contrast them and show why one is applied during combat and one is not. "While" means "during which" or "for the duration that this is happening", so it's a continuous effect that persists past the active window of Dashs effect, whereas "after" effects apply at a single specific time and do not continually trigger.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Tvboy

[D00kies 48]

19 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

There seems to be a gross misinterpretation of the word "after" at play here.

Here is the FAQ entry being used as justification:

* After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
    * Asteroid: The ship rolls 1 attack die. On a result, it suffers one damage; on a result, it suffers one critical damage. While a ship is overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks.
    * Debris Cloud: The ship receives 1 stress token. Then, the ship rolls 1 attack die. On a result, it suffers one critical damage." 

"After" does not mean "anytime in the game after this thing happens", it means "now or never". For example, if a Defender with the X7 title ends its maneuver within range 1 of Carnor Jax and then Carnor moves away, The Defender doesn't then retroactively get its free evade action. In the same way, the effect that triggers after Dash moves into an obstacle is not retroactively applied after his ability turns off at a later point in the game.

I bolded the words After and While to contrast them and show why one is applied during combat and one is not. "While" means "during which" or "for the duration that this is happening", so it's a continuous effect that persists past the active window of Dashs effect, whereas "after" effects apply at a single specific time and do not continually trigger.

Those effects only happen after the trigger, though. The effect of "While a ship is overlapping an asteroid, it cannot perform any attacks" happens only After the trigger, which doesn't while he ignores obstacles.

If he's considered to not have overlapped during Activation then applying that effect later would be retroactive. The trigger is after an overlap which in this case would happen at the beginning of Combat.
 

[ObiWonka 7,081]

Do you also shoot with Denger's revenge ability 3 turns or even 3 games later because he told you to do it "after" he was attacked?

[D00kies 48]

@ObiWonka Awesome, man.

The instance here is that there was no window for that condition to trigger. Applying that ongoing effect anytime after would be retroactive.

Edited March 30, 2017 by D00kies

[ObiWonka 7,081]

Which condition has no window?

[digitalbusker 2,248]

Go ahead and Frankmail this, if you haven't already, and sit back and wait for the FFG-special "You're overthinking it" response.

[sharrrp 444]

This is an awful lot of arguing about something that has been around and played the same way since Wave 5. Nothing has changed since then that would affect Dash.

Just the sheer number of people that have chimed in on this and none of them on your side should make it pretty clear where the truth lies on this one D00kie.

[Tvboy 3,529]

5 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

This is an awful lot of arguing about something that has been around and played the same way since Wave 5. Nothing has changed since then that would affect Dash.

Just the sheer number of people that have chimed in on this and none of them on your side should make it pretty clear where the truth lies on this one D00kie.

Actually a completely new rulebook(s) and FAQ has come out since Dash was released so it's worth talking about, but at this point it should be emailed to FFG. They don't respond to forum posts but they do respond to emails.

Since D00kie is the only one interpreting the rules in a way that would make Dash's ability non-functional, the burden of proof is on him. Email FFG and show us their response.

[D00kies 48]

@Tvboy Thank you for mentioning that the FAQ has changed.  I sent an email to FFG about this.

Yeah guys, usually it isn't disputed but there seems to be more detail now.

[sharrrp 444]

1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

Actually a completely new rulebook(s) and FAQ has come out since Dash was released so it's worth talking about, but at this point it should be emailed to FFG. They don't respond to forum posts but they do respond to emails.

Since D00kie is the only one interpreting the rules in a way that would make Dash's ability non-functional, the burden of proof is on him. Email FFG and show us their response.

I said nothing had changed that would affect Dash. The second half of that sentence is kind of key.

[ObiWonka 7,081]

17 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

I said nothing had changed that would affect Dash. The second half of that sentence is kind of key.

Since we're splitting hairs, that's a whole new sentence.

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

Frak me this thread is a nightmare...

[Klutz 1,590]

4 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Frak me this thread is a nightmare...

Don't you get it man, everyone's been wrong for years!

WAKE UP SHEEPLE !!

[RampancyTW 606]

@D00kies actually has a point here.  I think that he's likely incorrect in the interpretation that Dash would suffer overlap consequences at the beginning of the activation, but it's possible that RAW with the new FAQ he would suffer the effects.  He doesn't ignore obstacle EFFECTS in the activation phase, he ignores OBSTACLES, and once he no longer ignores obstacles, he could potentially suffer the overlap penalty then, since his overlapping state is not caused by a maneuver (since as others have pointed out, "after" would no longer be applying here).

 

Could go either way.  RAW he's very possibly right, although RAI probably not.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No he's just wrong.

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

/Thread.

[D00kies 48]

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

@D00kies actually has a point here.  I think that he's likely incorrect in the interpretation that Dash would suffer overlap consequences at the beginning of the activation, but it's possible that RAW with the new FAQ he would suffer the effects.  He doesn't ignore obstacle EFFECTS in the activation phase, he ignores OBSTACLES, and once he no longer ignores obstacles, he could potentially suffer the overlap penalty then, since his overlapping state is not caused by a maneuver (since as others have pointed out, "after" would no longer be applying here).

 

Could go either way.  RAW he's very possibly right, although RAI probably not.

Beginning of *Combat and of course when he doesn't ignore an obstacle at any other time as well. Thanks for thinking about it.

[Vitalis 1,012]

19 hours ago, D00kies said:

 

@nigeltastic Pretty sure my counterpoints are throughout this thread. Anyways, by how some fly Dash it seems like the game state is only partially ignored.

Your counterpoints are most confusing thread ever.  Community several times already explained to you that obstacles got 2 different states and effects

-one is when you overlap them for the first time (roll the dice + skip action\get stress)

-second state is when you are already on them (no attack in combat, additional def dice)

Everytime an obstacle function is called by game and it is either activation or action phase it gets intercepted by Dash who either lets it fly or stops it. The calls are based on game effects instances NOT obstacle instance. So yes Dash can shoot his Snap without obstruction, and then get additional dice vs enemy Snap, if both were shot before combat. And yes he does not get an attack in combat even if he ignored asteroid in activation.

 

p.s. im very happy to pseudocode it to make IT EXTREMALLY CLEAR, if you know some basic programming.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Vitalis

[RampancyTW 606]

1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

Your counterpoints are most confusing thread ever.  Community several times already explained to you that obstacles got 2 different states and effects

-one is when you overlap them for the first time (roll the dice + skip action\get stress)

-second state is when you are already on them (no attack in combat, additional def dice)

Everytime an obstacle function is called by game and it is either activation or action phase it gets intercepted by Dash who either lets it fly or stops it. The calls are based on game effects instances NOT obstacle instance. So yes Dash can shoot his Snap without obstruction, and then get additional dice vs enemy Snap, if both were shot before combat. And yes he does not get an attack in combat even if he ignored asteroid in activation.

 

p.s. im very happy to pseudocode it to make IT EXTREMALLY CLEAR, if you know some basic programming.

 

Except when it's "overlapped" the first time, Dash ignores that it's there-- if the obstacle is being ignored, does an overlap occur?  Is Dash "already on" an obstacle if that obstacle was being ignored?

Prior to the FAQ change that clarified what happens outside of maneuver-based obstacle overlaps, this would be totally right, because overlapping an obstacle was specifically a function of maneuvering in the activation phase.  But that is NO LONGER THE CASE.

Again, I think it's unlikely that he's right, but you can't definitively say he's wrong like the community has been jumping down his throat to do, here.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No, we can.  To wit, this thread.

[RampancyTW 606]

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

No, we can.  To wit, this thread.

You haven't given a basis on which to do so, though.  There have been a bunch of justifications for how the rules COULD work to avoid a Dash overlap penalty in the combat phase, but none of those are actually statements about how the rules DO work.  I mean the entire premise of him being definitively wrong hinges on the idea that obstacles are separate entities with the ability to ignore or not ignore ships, which there's no real rule or precedent for.

This would be pretty cut and dry if Dash ignored obstacle EFFECTS, but he doesn't.  He ignores the obstacles themselves.

Again, I think it's extremely likely that it gets clarified that he doesn't, but that doesn't make him wrong regarding the RAW.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No, it does.

Dash ignores obstacles.

Obstacles have their effects at specific times, if he's ignoring them at those times, those effects are ignored entirely, not deferred until later.  When he stops ignoring them, effects that are continuous (obstruction, not shooting) do affect him.

This is RAW.