Multiple cards modifying "Base Value" (potential spoilers)

[Buhallin 4,563]

2 hours ago, Network57 said:

"Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value."

But it does so without changing the same thing that MT changes.  If it did so, then which one wins would be up to the lead investigator.  Priority of Simultaneous Resolution says If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects cannot be applied simultaneously, the lead investigator determines the order in which they are applied.

If they affect the same thing, then MT and Duke cannot be resolved simultaneously.  MT says X=5, Duke says X=4.  You cannot do both at the same time, they're mutually exclusive.  So per the priority rules, if they affected the same value it would be up to the lead investigator to choose which one was applied first - or more importantly, which was applied last, since that one would be the final value.  Since that's not the reply we got, which says that Duke always wins, Duke's effect must not only be affecting something different than MT, it must be applied later in the flow.

Which actually works.  MT affects base stats.  Duke changes what the base value is for the test, but not the actual stat.  Different things, and unclear which one Neri is referring to.

Edit: This is like asking about order of operations between Flashlight and Double or Nothing.  The two don't interact.  Flashlight changes Shroud.  Shroud is used to set the base difficulty.  Double or Nothing modifies the difficulty.  You don't have to apply order of operations because they're modifying different things.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Buhallin

[shosuko 2,174]

7 hours ago, Network57 said:

I think you're proving my point. Duke is using a different base. "Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value." You have a new base value for the duration of this test. You only ever have one base value.

Ask the devs. I'll be shocked if I'm wrong.

I wouldn't be shocked either way - because it may be that the designers did not consider how these cards would interact yet, and may have to decide a rule to effect these - and this type of interaction - going forward.

Semantics are vital to these discussions, and what I see is that there are 2 different wording, so we need to consider what each mean.  An "investigator's base combat" is very straight forward.  MT explicitly states it changes the base value of the investigator and uses the words "set the base value of your combat" in the ability.  For the purposes of finding "the attacking investigator's base combat" MT would clearly be in effect making Neri's stat a 5.

Duke says "you attack with a base combat skill of 4."  This is a bit ambiguous, but I think most people would interpret this to mean your investigator's stat is 4 during the check, and Neri would be a 4.  However...

We already have a method in the rule book for resolving 2 constant abilities on page 17 of the reference.  Here it states simply that the lead investigator can pick which takes precedence.  The conflict is that the official answer doesn't agree with that, instead stating that Duke wins.  Why would Duke win when this priority conflict is actually the Lead Investigator's decision?  The answer to that is that Duke would win if Duke wasn't a constant modifier on the investigator's base combat value, but simply provided an abstract combat value for the test which did not effect or reference the base combat value of the investigator.

The ability is "You attack with a base combat value of 4," not "Your base combat value is 4 during this attack."

So the supposition is that Duke provides a separate stat for the combat check, which means this attack is not effected by MT or Pete's stat.  "Duke's ability overrides Pete's base combat value is with a new [separate] value" ie Pete's base combat value is still Pete's combat value, either a 2 or if MT is in play then a 5.  Neri would copy whatever Pete's base combat value is, irrespective of Duke's ability overriding Pete's combat value for this check.  This is the answer that works with the rules, reference, and ruling...  But I want to state that I still see this ruling as uncertain.

To help illustrate this perspective on the problem - imagine you had a weakness card with a fast action: If your combat value is a 4, discard this card.  Then you have Pete who's combat value is a 2.  If I use Duke's ability to attack, would you consider my combat value to be a 4, allowing me to discard this weakness?

Edited April 11, 2017 by shosuko

[Xenu's Paradox 40]

Duke says that you attack with a base value of 4. It says nothing about changing your Investigator's base value.

It replaces the combat value on your investigator card without altering it. End of discussion.

[Gaffa 673]

On 4/10/2017 at 9:13 PM, shosuko said:

Duke says "you attack with a base combat skill of 4."  This is a bit ambiguous, but I think most people would interpret this to mean your investigator's stat is 4 during the check, and Neri would be a 4.  However...

It's not ambiguous at all. Duke never performs anything -- only the investigator ("you") do. You are attacking with a base Combat of 4. Neri will therefore be a 4 difficulty.

 

[shosuko 2,174]

 

16 minutes ago, Gaffa said:

It's not ambiguous at all. Duke never performs anything -- only the investigator ("you") do. You are attacking with a base Combat of 4. Neri will therefore be a 4 difficulty.

 

Then how do you resolve a conflict of Duke + MT?

[General Zodd 459]

12 hours ago, shosuko said:

 

Then how do you resolve a conflict of Duke + MT?

Because MT changes your base combat ability, whereas Duke uses an entirely separate, and unrelated base value. And before anyone jumps on that second point, that is now "your" base value for that particular test.

[SolidusPrime 87]

On 4/2/2017 at 2:04 PM, Xenu's Paradox said:

Your skill value during a test is normally equal to the base value of the pertinent skill, plus modifiers.

MT changes your base values permanently (or until it leaves play, at any rate).

Duke replaces your base value temporarily, specifically for the purposes of the Fight test. If you attacked a hypothetical monster that said "Forced – when an Investigator with [Combat] 4 or lower attacks <this>: deal 1 damage to that Investigator," Werewolf Pete would take no damage even with no bonuses to combat – because the base value of 4 only applies to the Fight test.

This is how I interpreted it as well - You are either doing the action on Duke's card - Exhausting it to set your base value to 4 for an attack, or you are doing the action on the MT card - Exhausting it to attack with your base value (which the card sets permanently).

If both are out, your stats are set by the MT card, and are only changed by Duke if you exhaust him specifically to do that attack - which would lower your value to 4....any other time you aren't using Duke, your stat is 5.

Edited April 12, 2017 by SolidusPrime

[DaeMord 9]

I cant help but feel that the confusion here lies in both "you" and "Investigator".

See where as you is defined as investigator, the character sheet is ALSO defined as investigator.

We have had it confirmed that duke does not modify the sheet, but does modify "you"

The question i think being really asked is which "investigator" (namely you or the sheet) is Neri checking because having checked multiple times where as i can find definitions of "you" that do include investigator, i cannot find the other direction namely that investigator = you and i feel this is important because neri references investigator NOT you and some seem to have assumed that investigator = you, which it may do, but personally i feel the duke ruling implies that where as you = investigator, investigator <> you

The confusion in this argument i feel is routed in this disparity as if all are the same then the resulting ruling to some of us does not apear to work where as others seem to find it just fine.

I am still waiting in a reply from FFG, because i feel the only resolution on this is going to come from an official responce. Not sure how long responces usually take.

[shosuko 2,174]

From what I've read "you" and "investigator" are interchangeable, but I don't think that is the problem, or misunderstanding at all.  The misunderstanding is that Duke somehow sets your base stat when in fact - Duke's ability never effects your base stat.  What Duke's ability does is provide a separate arbitrary base combat for that check.  This arbitrary base does not change or effect "your" combat, it only effects what the skill test uses to check success.  This is the reason MT does not create a resolution conflict allowing the Lead Investigator to choose which stat to use, and it is also the reason why Neri would match Pete's 2 not Duke's 4.

I'm going to walk through the skill test exactly as it is in the book.  The wording in these games is very precise.  This may clear up more precisely why Duke wins over MT, and Neri is a 2 strength.

We have the skill check for an attack: (page 26 of rules reference)
1- Determine type of test - this does not draw any stats, but simply states whether it is a test for wilpower, intellect, combat, or agility.
2 - Commit cards from hand to skill test
3 - Reveal Chaos Token
4 - Apply Chaos Symbol Effects
5 - Determine investigator's modified value:  Start with the base stat and apply all active modifiers, including cards committed to the test, and the chaos token effect, and all active card abilities that are modifying the investigator's skill value***
6 - Determine success / failure
7 - Apply results
8 - Test Ends

From the *** noted line - MT would explicitly come into conflict with Duke as they both effect the investigator's skill value.  This conflict would trigger Priority of Simultaneous Resolution (page 17 rules reference) IF, and only IF Duke is changing the Investigator's / your / pete's combat skill.  Priority states that the Lead Investigator chooses which effect takes priority.  The answer already given by the devs states that this does not happen.  When you use Duke you only get Duke's stat even if MT is on the table.

This implies that MT and Duke do not effect the same thing - they are separate.  It is still a combat check, but what Duke changes is line 5.  Rather than taking your investigator's combat stat you use the Base 4 that Duke provides.  This never changes "your" value or your "investigator's value," it simply gives a substitution on this line.  Your stat is never checked.  This is the reason MT and Duke do not enter priority conflict, and that you always use Duke's base 4 even if you have another effect which would effect your base value, and the reason Neri still copies the 2 base of Pete.  Duke's base 4 combat is never Pete's base combat.

Edited April 15, 2017 by shosuko

[mwmcintyre 271]

There's no simultaneous resolution and there are not 2 constant effects. MT is a constant, Duke's ability is a specific instance and is not in any way a constant effect, it is a single triggered action. Specific always beats general. MT changes the general game state, Duke changes the game state for the specific action/instance. Duke's triggered ability overrides MT.

[mwmcintyre 271]

Also Duke: "You attack with a base [fight] skill of 4"

This specifically says for the duration of the fight action, "your" base skill is 4.

Salvatore Neri: Fight is equal to the attacking investigators base fight skill. If you are using Duke's ability, for the duration of the attack, "your" base fight skill is 4, therefore Neri is at 4 when you attack using Duke's ability. Nothing else is applicable.

[Buhallin 4,563]

19 hours ago, mwmcintyre said:

MT is a constant, Duke's ability is a specific instance and is not in any way a constant effect, it is a single triggered action. Specific always beats general.

There isn't actually any such thing as a "specific effect". Duke is a lasting effect, which applies for the duration of the test. The simultaneous resolution rules specifically cover how to handle a conflict between a constant effect and a lasting effect; specifically, the lead investigator chooses. Lasting doesn't automatically win.

[SolidusPrime 87]

Duke does not meet the criteria to be considered a "Lasting Effect" as defined in the rule reference - thus it is not controlled by the lead investigator.

It is an ability that is activated using an action trigger. When you activate it, you take a fight action with a base sill of 4, thats it. It doesn't change your stat in any persistent, ongoing way.

 If you are not activating for this specific action, your stat is 5 from the Lasting Effect of Monstrous Transformation.

Edited April 17, 2017 by SolidusPrime
grammar

[Buhallin 4,563]

45 minutes ago, SolidusPrime said:

Duke does not meet the criteria to be considered a "Lasting Effect" as defined in the rule reference - thus it is not controlled by the lead investigator.

How do you figure?  Here's the definition for Lasting Effect:

Some card abilities create conditions that affect the game state for a specified duration (for example, “until the end of the phase” or “ for this skill test”). Such effects are known as lasting effects.

Duke's ability lasts for the duration of the skill test, just like any other action which modifies the test.  That makes it a lasting effect.  I mean, "for this skill test" is even one of the golden examples they give of a lasting effect.

[SolidusPrime 87]

1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

How do you figure?  Here's the definition for Lasting Effect:

Some card abilities create conditions that affect the game state for a specified duration (for example, “until the end of the phase” or “ for this skill test”). Such effects are known as lasting effects.

Duke's ability lasts for the duration of the skill test, just like any other action which modifies the test.  That makes it a lasting effect.  I mean, "for this skill test" is even one of the golden examples they give of a lasting effect.

Because it isn't setting a condition that lasts for any specified amount of time. You do the action on the card exactly how it is stated, and it's done. That's it. Your "golden example" isn't even listed anywhere in Duke's text. There is nothing on the card that hints or implies that it "lasts" for any amount of time whatsoever. By your definition, everything in the game would be a lasting effect pretty much.

It says:

"[Action] Exhaust Duke: Fight. You attack with a base skill of 4. This attack deals +1 damage."

So why would you do anything other than that?

Even in the concocted example of someone playing MT as a "fast" option in the middle of using Duke, you still attack with a score of 4. The card is telling you EXACTLY what to do.

Also, "lore" wise it wouldn't make any sense for YOUR monstrous transformation to affect Duke's strength.

EDIT - 

I didn't realize this had already officially been answered in this very topic.  Apologies.

Official response:

Greetings,

 

Monstrous Transformation sets the base value of your combat to 5. It is almost as the combat value on Pete’s card changes from 2 to 5. However, when you use Duke’s ability, he attacks with a base combat value of 4 regardless of what is normal combat value would be. Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value.

 

Cheers,

------------------------------------------------

Matthew Newman

Edited April 17, 2017 by SolidusPrime

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 hour ago, SolidusPrime said:

Because it isn't setting a condition that lasts for any specified amount of time. You do the action on the card exactly how it is stated, and it's done. That's it. Your "golden example" isn't even listed anywhere in Duke's text. There is nothing on the card that hints or implies that it "lasts" for any amount of time whatsoever. By your definition, everything in the game would be a lasting effect pretty much.

So then how does Duke's ability change the application of the base skill (in Step 5) if the effect doesn't last through the entirety of the skill test?  The effect of "a base [Fight] skill of 4" MUST persist throughout the skill check, which makes it a lasting effect.  The same goes for any other action ability relating to checks - Machete adds +1 damage.  That does nothing until Step 7 of the skill test (Apply skill test results), so it must be active throughout the skill test.  They may not explicitly say "for this skill test" but that's rather obviously how they work, because they don't work otherwise.

And yes, the answer is there, but you're misunderstanding the reason why the answer is what it is.  Monstrous Transformation sets your base attribute.  Duke doesn't, which is why they don't conflict.  The key rule is in Step 5 of the Skill Test, which says Start with the base skill (of the skill that matches the type of test that is resolving) of the investigator performing this test.  This is what Duke is overriding.  Both effects can be resolved without conflict, because MT sets the base stat, and then Duke ignores it.

But to reiterate the key point - actions which relate to tests will usually have effects which apply for the duration of that action.  That makes them a lasting effect.  And yes, it also means that there are a great many lasting effects in the game, although not necessarily everything (most events are not).  I think where you're going wrong is that you're considering a skill test to be an instant thing with no duration, but it's not.  There are a series of steps, complete with action windows, and a duration to all of that.

 

[cheapmate 182]

As the Duke/Salvatore Neri question came up both times we played Carnevale of Horrors I asked FFG to clarify and the reply from Matt Newman was this:

Greetings,

 

You should use the replacement base value of 4 when attacking Salvatore with Duke. When attacking with Duke, throughout the duration of the attack, your base combat value is considered to be 4, so that’s what Salvatore is mimicking with his ability.

 

Cheers,

------------------------------------------------

Matthew Newman

Associate LCG Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

[Network57 561]

3 minutes ago, cheapmate said:

As the Duke/Salvatore Neri question came up both times we played Carnevale of Horrors I asked FFG to clarify and the reply from Matt Newman was this:

Greetings,

 

You should use the replacement base value of 4 when attacking Salvatore with Duke. When attacking with Duke, throughout the duration of the attack, your base combat value is considered to be 4, so that’s what Salvatore is mimicking with his ability.

 

Cheers,

------------------------------------------------

Matthew Newman

Associate LCG Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

Pretty much 100% what we all kind of knew he would say.