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DaeMord

Multiple cards modifying "Base Value" (potential spoilers)

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4 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Monstrous Transformation is fast, so it can be played in any player window during your turn, which includes during skill test for a Fight action you triggered.

*looks up rules*

Yes you are correct, sir, my bad. However, that does not change the result of usage. MT alters Pete's numbers, the action on Duke provides a separate base number to use.

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On 3/30/2017 at 8:25 AM, DaeMord said:

But when you discard a card it increases YOUR stat and this has been confirmed with Duke therefore surely Duke mechanically modifies YOUR stat otherwise how does discarding cards or any thing that modifies YOUR value work when Duke is active

Your skill value during a test is normally equal to the base value of the pertinent skill, plus modifiers.

MT changes your base values permanently (or until it leaves play, at any rate).

Duke replaces your base value temporarily, specifically for the purposes of the Fight test. If you attacked a hypothetical monster that said "Forced – when an Investigator with [Combat] 4 or lower attacks <this>: deal 1 damage to that Investigator," Werewolf Pete would take no damage even with no bonuses to combat – because the base value of 4 only applies to the Fight test.

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So question came up, as a result of this ruling extension question about Pete + Duke fighting Salvatore Neri (https://arkhamdb.com/card/82019) Would this mean if Pete fights using Duke, then he has a Fight value of 2, because ive been playing it assuming it was 4 and looking at the above interpretation of rules, i think maybe ive been playing this wrong since petes base value remains 2, is this correct?

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Now that is a good question. I can see it both ways. By the intent of the card, I would say you use 4, but per the wording, you have a good case. I would recommend asking FFG directly and getting back to us because I can't see how one argument has an edge over the other. There is a place here on their site specifically to submit rules questions.

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9 hours ago, DaeMord said:

So question came up, as a result of this ruling extension question about Pete + Duke fighting Salvatore Neri (https://arkhamdb.com/card/82019) Would this mean if Pete fights using Duke, then he has a Fight value of 2, because ive been playing it assuming it was 4 and looking at the above interpretation of rules, i think maybe ive been playing this wrong since petes base value remains 2, is this correct?

This one isn't clear, and may need a ruling.  I think it could be read both ways, but would side with the Grim Rule and go with it matching duke's 4 base attack unless a ruling says otherwise.

Since it specifically states "investigator's base" I would tend to favor the interpretation that Salvatore Neri copies the 2 combat stat on Pete even when being attacked with Duke.

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Duke: Fight. You attack with a base combat skill of 4. This attack deals +1 damage.

Salvatore Neri's fight value is equal to the attacking investigator's base combat.

RR page 5
Base Value
Base value is the value of an element before any modifiers
are applied. Unless otherwise specified, the base value of an
element derived from a card is the value printed on that card.

Salvatore Neri is 4/3/3

 

 

Edited by player2439400

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5 hours ago, player2439400 said:

Duke: Fight. You attack with a base combat skill of 4. This attack deals +1 damage.

Salvatore Neri's fight value is equal to the attacking investigator's base combat.

RR page 5
Base Value
Base value is the value of an element before any modifiers
are applied. Unless otherwise specified, the base value of an
element derived from a card is the value printed on that card.

Salvatore Neri is 4/3/3

 

 

indeed unless otherwise specified, it is specified to be "The Attacking Investigators base combat" THIS is 2 NOT 4, Pete is the attacking investigator and his base value is not modified

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6 hours ago, player2439400 said:

Duke: Fight. You attack with a base combat skill of 4. This attack deals +1 damage.

Salvatore Neri's fight value is equal to the attacking investigator's base combat.

RR page 5
Base Value
Base value is the value of an element before any modifiers
are applied. Unless otherwise specified, the base value of an
element derived from a card is the value printed on that card.

 

@DaeMord In the first paragraph, "you" refers to Pete, not Duke, so Pete is then attacking with a base value of 4.

Duke amends your base value, he doesn't apply a modifier, so I'm with @player2439400

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yes but the ruling prior states that Petes value does NOT change, so if you refers to Pete then Petes base attack value is 2.

Also Neri does not say "Your base combat value" it says "attacking investigators base combat" which is 2 not 4

 

The important question here is "Does duke modify Petes value or attack with an imaginary card that has a value of 4" the previous ruling would suggest that there is an imaginary thing that has an attack of 4, but petes value remains 2 at all times, and given as how neri detects pete and not what your attack actually IS, this suggests 2 and not 4

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Duke doesnt "Set" anything to 4 it performs a fight on 4

 

So hyperthetical here to try and help explain, you fight neri with duke but in the middle of the duke fight you fast play MT, MT "sets" your base fight value to 5, but you are performing the fight on dukes value of 4.

We have had it confirmed this way round and neri is looking at the investigator so at this point petes fight is 5, you are fighting on 4, this has been confirmed that THIS is how it works.

IF neri is checking pete his value is NOW 5 even though the combat is still being done on 4

 

This is why this matters because clearly there are some people replying to this thread myself included see these 2 things on opposition to each other. and non of the above explanations explain why one would be true but the other would not

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Which is why I recommended going to FFG directly. There is a place specifically to officially ask these question. I don't see this being resolved any other way. My personal guess is that you use the base you are attacking with, but again, there is reason to suspect otherwise.

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1 hour ago, DaeMord said:

So hyperthetical here to try and help explain, you fight neri with duke but in the middle of the duke fight you fast play MT, MT "sets" your base fight value to 5, but you are performing the fight on dukes value of 4.

It's still not that difficult (and can you stop using acronyms for card names? It makes the conversation difficult for everyone to follow).

First off, you're just outright wrong about "Duke doesnt "Set" anything to 4 it performs a fight on 4". I mean, c'mon, read Duke's card. When you attack with him, he sets your base Combat to 4. A base Skill level is the number that the game starts checking in Step 5 of the Skill Timing sequence to find your final modified Skill value before Step 6 determines success or failure. As reading the Skill Test Timing chart shows, base Skill level doesn't matter until Step 5, which is when the numbers start being checked.

So, you started the fight with Duke, which set your base Combat to 4. For some stupid reason, since you had it in hand, you decide to play Monstrous Transformation mid-combat, when you could have just played it before you started combat and saved Duke for some investigation later. But regardless.

The game doesn't particularly care whether you played Monstrous Transformation before or after Step 2 on the Skill Timing chart (which are the only places you can do free triggered abilities), because base Skill value is not checked by the rules until way down in Step 5 ("Determine investigator's modified skill value", Rules Reference, page 26). Once you play it, your base Combat is now 5. Congratulations. You are now fighting at a base Combat of 5, and you have exhausted Duke for no good reason. Excellent play. (You're still getting Duke's +1 damage if successful, but Monstrous Transformation could have been used for +1 damage as well if you'd just played it before starting a fight, so it's still a waste of good Duke'ing).

In any case, Signore Neri will have the same combat value as your base Combat, which is now 5.

Edited by Gaffa

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Except Gaffa according to the ruling above you are STILL fighting on 4 in that exact situation hence the problem. see official responce posted earlier in this thread below

Quote

Official response:

Greetings,
 

Monstrous Transformation sets the base value of your combat to 5. It is almost as the combat value on Pete’s card changes from 2 to 5. However, when you use Duke’s ability, he attacks with a base combat value of 4 regardless of what is normal combat value would be. Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value.

 
Cheers,
------------------------------------------------
Matthew Newman

In responce to this i asked the question about playing Monstrous Transformation mid combat to see if it now overrode it, however the general concensus is it does not.

I belive i have posted this question to the FFG rules place (although it seemed quite hard to find so im not sure) hopefully they will give us an answer

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Well, yes, in that case, that's using Duke after you have a Monstrous Transformation out. That's even easier. You have a Combat of 5, but started an action that gives you a base Combat of 4. Why? Who knows!

But in that case, yes, you'd have a base Combat of 4, and poor Signore Neri (who is undoubtedly getting confused with all these werewolves and dogs running around) would have a fight value of 4 to hit.

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Gaffa - try being a little less condescending please.  Rules questions like these are a way we all learn mechanics, it doesn't matter if exhausting duke is "wasted" or not, and judgement on the tactical value in a rules forum is not the focus of the discussion.  The point is to explore how the mechanics work in these situations so we can understand them better.  Very rude to respond to a genuine question and include so many insulting things.

Further - abbreviations are natural in a conversation like this.  The original post alluded specifically to Monstrous Transformation, and the first reply confirmed it.  Reading the entire thread should help fill out the context for you.  If you haven't read the thread, it may be a good idea to go back through so you don't skip over any important information to the conversation so far like the official response posted on the last page.

As for this situation - I don't consider it "100% confirmed" that we understand it properly, but the official reply does seem to indicate that MT sets "your base value" to 5, while Duke lets you "attack with a base value" of 4.  I think further clarification would help.  The answer we were given may be responding to the situation where you play MT first and then attack with Duke, not specifically the other way around..  But the wording to me indicates that Duke's attack does not set Ashcan's base value, but rather attacks with it's own base value.

If Duke's attack does not effect "your base value" then Neri would certainly be at a 2 combat since "your" combat hasn't changed.

Edited by shosuko

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I think the ambiguous part here is what Neri's text refers to.  Is it the base printed attribute?  Or the base for the test?  Does "the investigator's..." refer to the card, or the test?

There seems to be a bit of unfortunate overloading around the term "base".  It refers to both the unmodified value, and the starting value for a skill test.

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I don't think there's any ambiguity. Base is clearly defined:

"Base value is the value of an element before any modifiers are applied. Unless otherwise specified, the base value of an element derived from a card is the value printed on that card."

Duke definitively otherwise specifies the base to be 4, overriding what is on the card. Neri doesn't refer to printed value, but rather the base. If you fight with Duke, it's 4. If you fight with Monstrous Transformation, it's 5. If you fight natively, it's 2. Essentially the idea of Neri is that you start break even, before you apply Asset or Event modifiers or committed Skill icons.

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Except that Monstrous Transformation also sets your base value, and Duke overrides that.  So we have the base stat (set by MT) that's generally use as the base for the skill test (which Duke sets).  They both refer to base value, but per the response they don't conflict, so there must be two different values there.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Except that Monstrous Transformation also sets your base value, and Duke overrides that.  So we have the base stat (set by MT) that's generally use as the base for the skill test (which Duke sets).  They both refer to base value, but per the response they don't conflict, so there must be two different values there.

 

 

They don't conflict because they can't both be active. Monstrous Transformation sets your base value from 2 to 5. Duke re-sets it from 5 to 4. You only have one base value, and only one card setting it at any given time. Monstrous Transformation is a passive effect that is "always on", absent an overriding value. Duke's effect does override that as a one-time effect during that test only.

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3 minutes ago, Network57 said:

They don't conflict because they can't both be active. Monstrous Transformation sets your base value from 2 to 5. Duke re-sets it from 5 to 4. You only have one base value, and only one card setting it at any given time. Monstrous Transformation is a passive effect that is "always on", absent an overriding value. Duke's effect does override that as a one-time effect during that test only.

Monstrous Transformation is a constant effect.  Duke's is an effect which lasts for the duration of the action.  If they were affecting the same thing, the rules for deconflicting those effects would come into play - Duke wouldn't just automatically win, it would be up to the lead investigator.  I laid the rules for that out earlier in the thread.

Per the response, the reason Duke does win is that the two effects are doing different things.  MT sets the investigator's base stat.  Duke ignores that base stat, and uses a different value as the base for the skill test.  They modify different things.

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1 minute ago, Buhallin said:

Monstrous Transformation is a constant effect.  Duke's is an effect which lasts for the duration of the action.  If they were affecting the same thing, the rules for deconflicting those effects would come into play - Duke wouldn't just automatically win, it would be up to the lead investigator.  I laid the rules for that out earlier in the thread.

Per the response, the reason Duke does win is that the two effects are doing different things.  MT sets the investigator's base stat.  Duke ignores that base stat, and uses a different value as the base for the skill test.  They modify different things.

Right. So at the moment Duke is Fighting, what's your base stat?

From the ruling: "Monstrous Transformation sets the base value of your combat to 5. It is almost as the combat value on Pete’s card changes from 2 to 5. However, when you use Duke’s ability, he attacks with a base combat value of 4 regardless of what is normal combat value would be. Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value."

Thus: Pete's base starts at 2. Monstrous Transformation: Base set to 5. Duke: Overrides base with a new value of 4.

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28 minutes ago, Network57 said:

I don't think there's any ambiguity. Base is clearly defined:

"Base value is the value of an element before any modifiers are applied. Unless otherwise specified, the base value of an element derived from a card is the value printed on that card."

Duke definitively otherwise specifies the base to be 4, overriding what is on the card. Neri doesn't refer to printed value, but rather the base. If you fight with Duke, it's 4. If you fight with Monstrous Transformation, it's 5. If you fight natively, it's 2. Essentially the idea of Neri is that you start break even, before you apply Asset or Event modifiers or committed Skill icons.

Neri states that his fight matches "the attacking investigator's base combat."  The point of this discussion is that it appears Duke does not change the attacking investigator's base combat, but rather gives a different base for this check.  If that is true, then Neri refers to the card while the check refers to Duke's base.  So far this seems to be the official ruling as the dev's stated that MT sets your base to 5, while Duke gives you a completely different base value of 4 to use instead of your character's base

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Just now, shosuko said:

Neri states that his fight matches "the attacking investigator's base combat."  The point of this discussion is that it appears Duke does not change the attacking investigator's base combat, but rather gives a different base for this check.  If that is true, then Neri refers to the card while the check refers to Duke's base.  So far this seems to be the official ruling as the dev's stated that MT sets your base to 5, while Duke gives you a completely different base value of 4 to use instead of your character's base

I think you're proving my point. Duke is using a different base. "Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value." You have a new base value for the duration of this test. You only ever have one base value.

Ask the devs. I'll be shocked if I'm wrong.

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