Multiple cards modifying "Base Value" (potential spoilers)

[DaeMord 9]

If your Ashcan, duke can modify the base value of your fight or investigate when doing tests, curse of rougarou also contains a card able to modify your base value.

 

If i was to have both cards active at the same time, how does this resolve any thoughts?

[mwmcintyre 271]

Are you talking about the monstrous transformation card?

Just follow the cards. Say you have both Monstrous Transformation AND Duke in play. Your base values have been reset per MT. You cannot use their action trigger abilities at the same time. Duke's actions replace your base value, whatever it is. If you fight with Duke's abilities, that means your fight for that action will be base 4, not 5 because you are using Duke. Thematically think of it as using Duke's ability scores in place of your own. You replace the base values when using Duke, they are not modified.

If you wanted to use all your actions for fighting, you could Fight once with Duke at Fight 4, +1 damage(exhaust Duke), once with MT at Fight 5, +1 damage(Exhaust MT) and then use Ashcans special ability to ready one of the two and use it for a second time. In this case, MT is slightly better when using the triggered action.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by mwmcintyre

[Jobu 720]

I was wondering if you have a beat cop in play and activate Duke to attack, would you attack with a 4 or a 5?

[mwmcintyre 271]

That would make it a 5. Attack with a base score of 4, beat cop modifies the base value.

[Buhallin 4,563]

5 hours ago, mwmcintyre said:

Just follow the cards. Say you have both Monstrous Transformation AND Duke in play. Your base values have been reset per MT. You cannot use their action trigger abilities at the same time. Duke's actions replace your base value, whatever it is. If you fight with Duke's abilities, that means your fight for that action will be base 4, not 5 because you are using Duke. Thematically think of it as using Duke's ability scores in place of your own. You replace the base values when using Duke, they are not modified.

Monstrous Transformation is not an action trigger (at least the part relevant to his question isn't).  It's a constant ability.  Duke is an action ability.  Both are setting the same thing (base stat value).

Two things seem like they could apply here:

1.  Setting the base stat is a replacement effect, in which case the most recent ability (almost certainly Duke) would win.  Replacement effects explicitly have "instead" though, so I don't think that's it.
2.  Both abilities are modifying the same thing simultaneously, and they're incompatible with each other, so you use the "Priority of Simultaneous Resolution" rules, which says that the Lead Investigator gets to choose the order.  I think this is the correct answer - Monstrous Transformation is a Constant Ability.  Duke's stat modification lasts for that action, which makes it a Lasting Effect.  That's what's covered by that rule.

I can't find anything else that covers how you'd resolve this, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[mwmcintyre 271]

Yes, Monstrous Transformation replaces/resets the base values and for the relevance of the question, the action trigger on MT is irrelevant.

However, the text on Duke is very explicit that when you use either of his actions you use the base value indicated on his card. Period, stop, end of sentence. MT changes Pete's base value, it does not affect the base value used when activating Duke's action.

[Action] Exhaust Duke: Fight. You attack with a base [Combat] skill of 4. This attack deals +1 damage.
[Action] Exhaust Duke: Investigate.You investigate with a base [Intellect] skill of 4. You may move to a connecting location immediately before investigating with this effect.

Relevant text bolded/underlined/upsized. As an individual triggered action on Duke, the current base skill of Pete is irrelevant. MT affects the current base skill of Pete.

[mwmcintyre 271]

If you got an official ruling I'd be interested in hearing it. I'm very confident in my interpretation but would also not be averse to being proven wrong.

 

[Buhallin 4,563]

6 minutes ago, mwmcintyre said:

As an individual triggered action on Duke, the current base skill of Pete is irrelevant.

I don't think this is right though.  Or more completely, it's right but it's important WHY it's right, because it makes it wrong under the right conditions... if that makes sense  

Duke works by setting the base stat value for the duration of the test.  Under normal circumstances that's all well and good, and works like you say.  But Monstrous Transformation does exactly the same thing, so if they're both active at the same time, they're conflicting.  That makes the Priority matter ("If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects cannot be applied simultaneously...")

The only way I could see that Duke would definitely win out here is if he sets the base value for the test - base stat value determines base value for the test...  but that's not how he's written.  It explicitly sets the base value of the stat.

So back to you   What rules say that Duke's ability always takes precedence?

[mwmcintyre 271]

But the priority matter in your quote doesn't apply. Duke's ability is not a constant ability or a lasting effect modifying Pete's base value, it's a single isolated action and for that action, the base value to be used for that single isolated action is clearly delineated in no uncertain terms and is separate from whatever Pete's current base value is. And MT specifically sets Pete's base value as an ongoing effect. If Duke's ability were meant to take Pete's base values into account, they would have said something like: [Action]Fight. You get +2 to [Combat] for this attack and it deals +1 damage. Instead it clearly states the exact fight value you use as a base value for that one specific action.

Not sure how to explain my reasoning more clearly.

[Buhallin 4,563]

There's an order to deriving values for skill tests. The stat sets the base value for the test. If Duke said "The base value for this test is 4" then it would work like you say. But it doesn't - it specifically says that the base attribute is 4.

I do see where you're coming from, but I think it times out just like Flashlight, which modifies the Shroud that is used to determine the base difficulty, rather than the difficulty itself. Or at least that's how it's written.

[mwmcintyre 271]

Yes, the base attribute for that action is 4. I really do not understand your argument or where you are coming from at all. I am just not seeing what distinction you are making. MT rewrites the stat value on the character card as a constant effect and then the triggered action specifically replaces that value for that specific action/test. The MT change is a general change, the Duke ability is specific to that action. Specific beats general.

If you would, go ahead and spell out the sequence of modification you think happens.

[mwmcintyre 271]

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here, I am saying that Duke's score ONLY takes precedence when you trigger the fight action on his(Duke) card to also gain the benefit of his extra damage. If you are doing a standard fight action or triggering the fight action on the MT card, the MT value takes precedence.

edit:or triggering a fight action on another card that does not specify a separate base value.

Edited March 30, 2017 by mwmcintyre

[mwmcintyre 271]

Official response:

Greetings,

 

Monstrous Transformation sets the base value of your combat to 5. It is almost as the combat value on Pete’s card changes from 2 to 5. However, when you use Duke’s ability, he attacks with a base combat value of 4 regardless of what is normal combat value would be. Essentially, Duke’s ability overrides Pete’s base combat value with a new value.

 

Cheers,

------------------------------------------------

Matthew Newman

[DaeMord 9]

Valid, however what if i play Monsterous transformation DURING the combat test after skill card commit but before chaos resolution, there is a player window there, would it not kick the value up to 5 and override duke given as how duke has set the value to 4 for the test then the MF has proceded to "set" the value to 5

 

Granted this is a very specific window but er yeh?

[tsuma534 207]

9 minutes ago, DaeMord said:

Valid, however what if i play Monsterous transformation DURING the combat test after skill card commit but before chaos resolution, there is a player window there, would it not kick the value up to 5 and override duke given as how duke has set the value to 4 for the test then the MF has proceded to "set" the value to 5

 

Granted this is a very specific window but er yeh?

No. This still modifies Pete's base value which still isn't used in this particular test.

[DaeMord 9]

They both modify petes base value which the base value is what's used for the test the question is since the Mt gets played during the test does its modification take priority over the Duke modification since it came after the Duke text during the test

[shosuko 2,174]

mwmcintyre has it right - MT replaces the character's stat, but Duke's ability never references the characters stats.  In this game there is a certain context to skill activation.  If I have an ability that says "Fight -> Perform an attack using your agility instead of your combat" it wouldn't matter what my combat is because the ability never referenced my combat.  That is the same with duke - it doesn't matter what your base combat is when you activate duke because he never references it.

Just look at the wording - 

https://arkhamdb.com/find?q=transformation&sort=name&view=list&decks=all

- Set the base value of YOUR combat to 5

https://arkhamdb.com/find?q=duke&sort=name&view=card&decks=all

- You attack with a base 4 of combat

There is no replacement with Duke - it doesn't change your combat to 4 for the attack.  It doesn't reference your character's stat at all, it gives you a specified combat instead.  Even if you play MT after you activate duke's ability it wouldn't effect it because the ability on Duke doesn't use your base combat.

This is both mechanically sound, and thematically sound - as this is your dog's attack, not your attack.

Edited March 30, 2017 by shosuko

[DaeMord 9]

But when you discard a card it increases YOUR stat and this has been confirmed with Duke therefore surely Duke mechanically modifies YOUR stat otherwise how does discarding cards or any thing that modifies YOUR value work when Duke is active

[shosuko 2,174]

While Duke gives a separate combat stat for the check to use instead of your character's base combat stat, Duke's stat is still a "combat" stat and still follows the normal skill check mechanics.  This means you can still commit cards that give a bonus to a combat check, and any modifiers like Beat Cop still apply.

This is an important element of this topic - the Base stat is only the stat of origin.  Modifiers are different.  If MT gave +combat then these would stack, but because it says "set your base combat to 5" this specifically replaces the printed number on your card.  If I have a beat cop out and attack with MT then my total combat would be 6, because the modifier adds to the base.  Duke gives a base 4 combat for the check instead of referencing your character, but all +combat modifiers still apply because the stat being used is still a "combat" stat.

Edited March 30, 2017 by shosuko

[DaeMord 9]

I see what your saying and if that's what it is that's what it is. I still would prefer on an official ruling that Mt is played mid combat but i feel your probably correct, with that said something about it does "feel right" mechanically but that is probably more to do with me than anything else

[shosuko 2,174]

2 hours ago, mwmcintyre said:

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by shosuko

[General Zodd 459]

Just to chip in, this ruling also feels right. It doesn't matter that you've just Hulked out with MT, when you've just sent your dog to do the fighting for you...

[Buhallin 4,563]

Fair enough, glad for the quick resolution

 

[mwmcintyre 271]

16 hours ago, DaeMord said:

Valid, however what if i play Monsterous transformation DURING the combat test after skill card commit but before chaos resolution, there is a player window there, would it not kick the value up to 5 and override duke given as how duke has set the value to 4 for the test then the MF has proceded to "set" the value to 5

 

Granted this is a very specific window but er yeh?

That window is not valid. You spend an action to fight and you have to fully resolve that action before you can spend another action to play MT. Well, not spend because it's fast, but you still have to play it where you have a window to spend an action. Playing a Fast card is identical to using an action as far as when you can play it, it just doesn't cost an action. MT resets the base values for Pete himself while Duke's triggered action provides a completely separate base value for that test/action. MT is not an Event, it is an Asset, which means it goes into play and remains there creating a constant effect. Any Fight action you use other than something like Duke's will use the MT value.

As an Asset, MT cannot be played mid-combat.

Not to mention I specifically asked FFG and posted the official ruling above.

Edited March 31, 2017 by mwmcintyre

[Khudzlin 734]

Monstrous Transformation is fast, so it can be played in any player window during your turn, which includes during skill test for a Fight action you triggered.