Lost in time and space - Last mythos pack for Dunwich

[mwmcintyre 271]

On 7/8/2017 at 8:44 AM, DaeMord said:

"Assuming actions reset" for the purposes of pocket watch for a second, i would also raise the natural issue of Leo, do we get 3 or 4 actions to use?

The entire phase repeats, so you would have another full turn. Exhausted cards would not refresh, but Leo just gives you an extra action during your turn without exhausting. Repeating the phase means you get another full turn so you could use his extra again.

[awp832 447]

On 7/9/2017 at 2:05 AM, Buhallin said:

So how do investigators take actions on the first turn of the game?  If they're only granted during upkeep, and you haven't had an upkeep phase yet, then you have no actions, right?

When you take a turn, you are permitted to take three actions.  "Reset" isn't even defined as a game term.

The game state begins with investigators having actions,  they use them, and then they need to be reset.   That's sort of what reset means,  to go back to the original state.   The original state being that you have 3 actions,  and then you took your turn and you have no actions,  so you reset to the original state on the upkeep phase.

Just because something isn't defined as a game term doesn't mean it isn't important.   For example;  "Considered engaged" is never defined as a game term either.

Edited July 10, 2017 by awp832

[Doma0997 72]

Doesn't answer the actions question, but found this on reddit after being directed there from Discord

 

"I sent the following rules question to FFG:

Regarding The Golden Pocket Watch announced in a couple of preview articles for Lost in Time and Space - if you choose to skip a phase, does that cause you to skip all of the timing steps in that phase, or all but the one declaring the End of Phase? In particular, alongside The Red Gloved Man coming in the same pack - would using the Gold Watch to skip the Mythos Phase prevent the Red Gloved Man from leaving play, or not?

And got the following response from Matthew Newman:

When a phase is skipped, it is skipped in its entirety. Reactions to that phase beginning or ending cannot be triggered, because the phase does not ever begin or end. So if you use TGPW to skip the Mythos phase, TRGM is not discarded from play, because his Forced effect never triggers.

He also clarified that the text on Gold Pocket Watch needed an errata to become reaction triggers:

(Also, shouldn't the GPW's abilities be reactions rather than fast actions?)

Yes, they should. I will make a note to add this to the next FAQ."

[Buhallin 4,563]

2 hours ago, awp832 said:

The game state begins with investigators having actions,  they use them, and then they need to be reset.   That's sort of what reset means,  to go back to the original state.   The original state being that you have 3 actions,  and then you took your turn and you have no actions,  so you reset to the original state on the upkeep phase.

Nothing says you start with three actions.  The only reference to the actions you get is that you get three as part of your turn - which also points away from having some initial allocation, because it should just say "Take however many actions you have available".  If I'm missing something in the rules that says so, please point it out.

2 hours ago, awp832 said:

Just because something isn't defined as a game term doesn't mean it isn't important.   For example;  "Considered engaged" is never defined as a game term either.

If a term isn't specifically defined, we fall back to common English.  "Engaged" is defined, and "considered" in this case uses the definition "regard (someone or something) as having a specified quality".  So it is fully defined.

"Reset" can use the language definition - as you point out, we can use the English definition that it's returning to the original state.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that the original state is not defined.  Nowhere do the rules say "You have 3 actions to spend".  It's not stated.  There's no timing point for it.  At least not as you want it to be - the one rule we do have that says it is part of the definition for a player turn, and it'll give you three actions regardless of whether the "reset" has happened or not.

[Slothgodfather 270]

This was posted in Cardgamedb:

 

Greetings, The “reset actions” step of the upkeep phase and the mini-cards are mostly there as a convenience in order to give players a way of tracking who has taken a turn and who has not. Generally, investigators have 3 actions to take whenever they take a turn, and each investigator takes one turn during the investigation phase. If a card effect grants you a new turn, either explicitly or in this case by allowing you to repeat the investigation phase, the investigators should be granted a full turn’s worth of actions once again. Likewise, if the upkeep phase is skipped, this doesn’t prevent the players from being able to take their turn during the next round. Cheers, ------------------------------------------------ Matthew Newman

[cfmcdonald 27]

On 7/10/2017 at 0:02 PM, Buhallin said:

If a term isn't specifically defined, we fall back to common English.  "Engaged" is defined, and "considered" in this case uses the definition "regard (someone or something) as having a specified quality".  So it is fully defined.

Unfortunately common English fails you in this case, because Zoey's Cross doesn't trigger off being "considered engaged", so somehow through some magical process this special meaning of engaged allows you to go from unengaged to "considered engaged" without ever "becoming engaged".   

[Buhallin 4,563]

2 hours ago, cfmcdonald said:

Unfortunately common English fails you in this case, because Zoey's Cross doesn't trigger off being "considered engaged", so somehow through some magical process this special meaning of engaged allows you to go from unengaged to "considered engaged" without ever "becoming engaged".   

Why is this a problem? The entire point of "consider" in an effect is to say "This is not true, but act like it is". If you were to become engaged with something, then you would actually be engaged, and there wouldn't be any need to consider yourself engaged.

[cfmcdonald 27]

On 7/11/2017 at 5:41 PM, Buhallin said:

Why is this a problem? The entire point of "consider" in an effect is to say "This is not true, but act like it is". If you were to become engaged with something, then you would actually be engaged, and there wouldn't be any need to consider yourself engaged.

The problem is that the difference between X and "consider yourself X" is entirely ambiguous and open to interpretation.  e.g. if someone says "consider yourself at home" when I stop by for dinner I know that means I can use their bathroom, but I probably shouldn't put on my PJs and climb in their bed. This is a matter of cultural interpretation. 

You say, ah but you didn't become "engaged", you became "considered engaged", so Zoey's cross doesn't apply, it only applies when you become engaged, says so right in the cards.

I say ah, but you aren't "engaged", you are "considered engaged", so attacks of opportunity don't apply, that only applies when you're engaged, says so right in the rules. 

Why is one of these statements right and the other wrong? The answer is designer fiat. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by cfmcdonald

[Buhallin 4,563]

15 minutes ago, cfmcdonald said:

The problem is that the difference between X and "consider yourself X" is entirely ambiguous and open to interpretation.  e.g. if someone says "consider yourself at home" when I stop by for dinner I know that means I can use their bathroom, but I probably shouldn't put on my PJs and climb in their bed. This is a matter of cultural interpretation. 

This is flawed.  "Consider yourself at home" doesn't really mean that in a social context - it means "Consider yourself at home as long as you stay within certain areas and only do thing which would be typically acceptable for a guest and even that may be subjective and I'll change my mind if you do something I think you shouldn't".

Fortunately, the rules are pretty absolute.  If the rules said you could consider my home as yours, then sure, climb on into bed, or sell it for that matter.  The rules are not subject to social niceties, or revocation on a whim.  Exceptions to the state will be clearly laid out.

You know this, but still seem to think it's meaningful for some reason?

17 minutes ago, cfmcdonald said:

I say ah, but you aren't "engaged", you are "considered engaged", so attacks of opportunity don't apply, that only applies when you're engaged, says so right in the rules. 

I'm going to pretend for a minute that this is more than just outright trolling.

The game tells you to check the state of being engaged with an enemy.  If you are "considered engaged" then that is true when the state of engagement is checked.  It only matters when something checks to see if you're engaged, like potentially drawing an attack of opportunity.

But the state never actually changes, so there's no transition, which is what Zoey's Cross triggers on.

In short, "considered X" changes the answer any time you have to ask "Is X true?" but nothing more.

26 minutes ago, cfmcdonald said:

Why is one of these statements right and the other wrong? The answer is designer fiat. 

Well, yes, to the extent that they designed the rules as they did.

I'm still not sure what the actual problem is here.  Is something actually unclear in how it should work, or do you just dislike "considered to be X" as a concept?

[cfmcdonald 27]

10 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

This is flawed.  "Consider yourself at home" doesn't really mean that in a social context - it means "Consider yourself at home as long as you stay within certain areas and only do thing which would be typically acceptable for a guest and even that may be subjective and I'll change my mind if you do something I think you shouldn't".

Fortunately, the rules are pretty absolute.  If the rules said you could consider my home as yours, then sure, climb on into bed, or sell it for that matter.  The rules are not subject to social niceties, or revocation on a whim.  Exceptions to the state will be clearly laid out.

You know this, but still seem to think it's meaningful for some reason?

I'm going to pretend for a minute that this is more than just outright trolling.

The game tells you to check the state of being engaged with an enemy.  If you are "considered engaged" then that is true when the state of engagement is checked.  It only matters when something checks to see if you're engaged, like potentially drawing an attack of opportunity.

But the state never actually changes, so there's no transition, which is what Zoey's Cross triggers on.

In short, "considered X" changes the answer any time you have to ask "Is X true?" but nothing more.

Well, yes, to the extent that they designed the rules as they did.

I'm still not sure what the actual problem is here.  Is something actually unclear in how it should work, or do you just dislike "considered to be X" as a concept?

You are saying that "considered X" means that anything that checks the state of X applies, but anything that checks on entering/leaving the state of X doesn't apply.  While Zoey is "considered engaged", considered engaged means engaged. When Zoey is transitioning to/from "considered engaged", considered engaged does not mean engaged. My point is that this is what needs to be defined in the rules but isn't. It's not simply common sense. 

e.g. see this thread, where other people are also perplexed by this ruling: https://www.reddit.com/r/arkhamhorrorlcg/comments/6951vo/massive_enemies_and_engagement/

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by cfmcdonald