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Twin Laser Turret is destroying the game

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5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

And yet it costs a point more than TLT which is good without either of those things needing to be added to it.

It's an orthogonal comparison.  TLT is actually usable on low PS platforms.  They aren't competing, though.  They use different upgrade slots.  Most of the proposed nerfs make much worse on low PS platforms.

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I wasn't one of the people crying "NERF!" for it back when everyone else was and I'm not clamoring for it now, BUT...

Looking at how FFG swung the nerf bat at the recent 4 perpetrators, I look at TLT and think it's close to being on the same level of "auto-include." That was the one of the main points of the nerfs recently, to get rid of those "auto-include" type upgrades. When we look at a turret upgrade slot ON ANY SHIP, what's the first thing we do? Look at putting TLT on it and see how the list can build from there. Heck, even when the TIE Aggressor was announced there was a thread immediately about using a full Aggressor TLT list. 

I'm not looking for a "NERF TO THE GROUND" type, but something in line with what they did with the recent Errata. Get rid of the "auto-include" level and bring it to a level that requires more thought and strategy in the list building process so there becomes a larger use for other turrets. 

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11 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

It's a point cheaper than HLC in theory, but in practice it isn't.

The TLT is undercosted by 1-3 points accounting for the ships that are able to carry it being overcosted by about the same amount.

The bare HWK isn't worth 16 points. Attack 1, Agility 2, 5 health and horrible dial.
The bare Y-wing isn't worth 18 points. Attack 2, Agility 1, 8 health and bad dial.
The bare K-wing isn't worth 23 points. Attack 2 turret, Agility 1 and 9 health, with the most limited dial in the game. (For 2 points more you get the Jumpmaster 5000. For 1 point less you get an Attack 3 B-Wing)

So?

HLCs can't go in many places and they're overcosted in most of those too.  The only exception is the Aggressor (and the Outrider of course, but then an HLC Turret costs 12 points, and isn't that much more damaging that a TLT) and now just maybe the Scyk.

Comparisons to the Jumpmaster aren't exactly fair when the Jumpmaster is at least two points undercosted and/or should lose its EPT slot.

10 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

It's an orthogonal comparison.  TLT is actually usable on low PS platforms.  They aren't competing, though.  They use different upgrade slots.  Most of the proposed nerfs make much worse on low PS platforms.

It's not as orthogonal as you think.  The fact that the TLT has more utility on more platforms and can deal more reliable damage on those platforms makes me think it is too cheap.  You're not really arguing otherwise.

Making it worse on low PS platforms is kind of the point, when it's too good on those platforms.

Personally, even given all I've said above, my preferred nerf would just be to make it cost 7 or even 8 points (making 4 of them mean you can't get the extra utility upgrades (droid or LWF) or mean you can;t fit 4 of them at all, respectively, not to mention making Miranda more expensive).  I suggest game-mechanical nerfs because FFG have proven highly unwilling to nerf point costs even when point costs are the problem.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

 

So?

HLCs can't go in many places and they're overcosted in most of those too.  The only exception is the Aggressor (and the Outrider of course, but then an HLC Turret costs 12 points, and isn't that much more damaging that a TLT) and now just maybe the Scyk.

Comparisons to the Jumpmaster aren't exactly fair when the Jumpmaster is at least two points undercosted and/or should lose its EPT slot.

It's not as orthogonal as you think.  The fact that the TLT has more utility on more platforms and can deal more reliable damage on those platforms makes me think it is too cheap.  You're not really arguing otherwise.

Making it worse on low PS platforms is kind of the point, when it's too good on those platforms.

Personally, even given all I've said above, my preferred nerf would just be to make it cost 7 or even 8 points (making 4 of them mean you can't get the extra utility upgrades (droid or LWF) or mean you can;t fit 4 of them at all, respectively, not to mention making Miranda more expensive).  I suggest game-mechanical nerfs because FFG have proven highly unwilling to nerf point costs even when point costs are the problem.

My point is that a nerf would drive the low PS users out of the game rather than have them use the other turrets.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not if it was done carefully.

Particularly, not if it was done carefully and accompanied by a fix for those low PS low AGI generics that are overcosted right now.

I'd like to see Y wings on the table, but I'd like to see them as more than just mobile Twin Laser Turrets.

Yeah i would be fine with it in that framework but i don't think this thread is about the kind of broad fixes it would take for the turret secondary weapons to truly be secondary on their ships.

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8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

So?

HLCs can't go in many places and they're overcosted in most of those too.  The only exception is the Aggressor (and the Outrider of course, but then an HLC Turret costs 12 points, and isn't that much more damaging that a TLT) and now just maybe the Scyk.

B-wings, lambdas, scyk, firesprays, yv-666, aren't exactly overcosted. (Some lack survivability or mobility nowadays, but that is entirely a consequence of the meta or powercreep)

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4 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

I don't think these two upgrades are really comparable.  The HLC is pretty weak in a vacuum.  It only really makes sense when you can fire it 360 or have a free gunner effect on it.  It's also not in the same role and slot.

HLC was slightly overcosted even back when it first came out. It's a marginal upgrade at best these days, unless as you say it's on the Outrider (where 360 degrees, an extra 2 dice and no range mods make a HUGE difference).

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Just now, Azrapse said:

B-wings, lambdas, scyk, firesprays, yv-666, aren't exactly overcosted. (Some lack survivability or mobility nowadays, but that is entirely a consequence of the meta or powercreep)

I didn't say they were.  I said HLCs are overcosted ON them.  And I stand by that.

Aggressors and Outriders are basically the only place it's worth taking HLCs at the moment, just maybe Scyks.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

*shrug* maybe it should be.

In fact, stuff maybe; any discussion of the possibility of nerfs for TLT should include the possibility of compensatory buffs for the ships that nerfing it will return to underpoweredness.

I think if you made generic jousters more price-competitive the TLT problem would fix itself in terms of balance.

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1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

No we dont cause falcons are evaporated by alpha rockets even faster than by TLT.

Rockets are good against something? Clearly they need to be nerfed. And once the Falcons are no longer weak to alpha rocket strikes and can do well against something, they can receive a nerf too. 

Edited by EYEL1NER

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So now that the Imperials are finally getting TLT´s the demands for nerfing them begin again?

I have never liked TLT builds, but as Palpatine and Defenders were just nerfed, it would be a kick in the groin to do this now for Imperial players. Wouldn´t this have been done a long time ago if it was going to happen?

I´m ok with nerfing the TLT´s if we get our Emperor back as he was.

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55 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not if it was done carefully.

Particularly, not if it was done carefully and accompanied by a fix for those low PS low AGI generics that are overcosted right now.

I'd like to see Y wings on the table, but I'd like to see them as more than just mobile Twin Laser Turrets.

Try them with ION-turrets, you might like it....

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