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Twin Laser Turret is destroying the game

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1 minute ago, Vitalis said:

And such a flying circus costs around 50-60 points.

Yes.  It does.

And it's horrible to fly against.  I don;'t mind expensive things that I actually enjoy games against but it's got to the point where unless it's very early in the day I'd prefer to concede than fly a dragged out, dicey game against Miranda.  And I've rarely fought a game against her when she's been flown competently that isn't dragged out and dicey.

I just don't enjoy having no way to dodge her fire and still shoot her, and no way to avoid her bombs.

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14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Miranda (and to a lesser extent K Wings in general) are the reason I want to see TLTs (or K wings) nerfed somehow.  They're the single least interesting ship in the game to fly against and the single biggest ship in the game to utterly kill my agency as a player.  Though that's partly because they back up the TLT with a PWT AND bombs AND SLAM AND a capable alpha AND Miranda can Regen whilst still doing solidly consistent damage.

I think you're conflating issues.

If you hate triple bombing K-Wings lists then ok, but the bombing K-Wings don't use TLT.  

If you hate a fully-loaded Miranda with TLT/Bombs/Missiles then they've invested a huge number of points in that ship, and frankly it's incredibly daunting to fly well - with all those offensive options how do you ensure you pick the right one for the right situation?  I've spoken to National Champions who've looked at that 'Super Miranda' list and decided it looked way too much like hard work.  It's also rarely being played so heavily loaded, and that it's so heavily loaded means they're actually using their TLT quite infrequently.

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Not really.  I've fought against two ship super miranda lists at two out of three of last last big tournaments I've flown in, for a total of about 1/4 of my games in those tournaments.  Not to mention a bunch of times on Vassal.  Picking the right options has usually felt somewhat algorithmic to me from the other side of the table, but I can easily see how it wouldn't be.  I'd say I should fly her myself and find out but given how much she annoys me I wouldn't want to inflict that on others, especially if she's a chore to fly as well.

Maybe I've just got unlucky facing her so much though.

Bomber K wings are also bad, but somewhat off topic.

Basically my point is that if it's uninteresting at best to fly and uninteresting at best to fly against...

it's probably bad design.

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I think the Super Miranda list is hugely interesting to fly as you try to juggle your options every turn.  She's certainly a daunting opponent, but then she costs Super Dash money so what do you expect?

I like her so much I dedicated an entire blog to how skill-intensive she is! http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-girl-ive-heard-so-much-about.html

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5 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

TLT is fine where it is. Get in range one of whatever poor ship it's strapped to and blast'em away.

 

 

 

I hear this a lot, and while it is good advice for most carriers it doesn't address my personal bugbear with TLTs; on a Phantom-docked Ghost.

There is a prevalence of these here flown by Hera with Navigator, and IntAgent on a wingman (e.g. Ashoka). This makes the Range 1 lateral quadrants very hard to access. Couple this with Accuracy Corrector for any duff rolls, and Ghost is pushing through at least 2, often 3 damage per ship per round. My TIEs can't cope!

 

I don't begrudge TLTs on most carriers, but this set up feels like I'm playing against a system rather than dogfighting, and the outcome is long winded and inevitable. I like some of the solutions here; reduce subsequent shots in a round by 1 dice down to 1 (doesn't reeeeaaally hurt Ys) and/or make the red dice unmodifiable.

 

I also don't begrudge Rebels fans wanting to fly a fluffy list; it's this power combo I dislike I suppose, not the individual components...

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I don't think anyone would ever take a TLT if it only ever did one damage.

You can nerf the TLT but it isn't going to bring a renaissance of all these other turrets.  The R1-2 restriction is fairly daunting for a ship that's expected to be using it as its primary means of attack.

I don't necessarily think TLTs ran off the straight jousters, either(in fact you can make a TLT Y-wing a straight jouster with a pretty insane level of offense if you want but that's not particularly viable outside the stresshog).

To be fair, I have played games against quad TLTS- they are an absolute grind but they tend to come out close every time against a well-built list so I don't mind it so much.

Edited by Panzeh

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4 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

The problem with TLT is not that it is unbeatable, or even that it is over powered. Rather: it does too good a job at guaranteeing damage. B-Wings and other 1 agility ships are pushed out of the game.

Thus, if they are going to nerf TLTs, I think they should limit the red dice of the second shot to the agility of the defender (minimum of 1). This would let TLTs do token stripping and attacks against high agility ships, but give low agility ships a chance to breath a bit. 

This would also help Huge ships, as a reinforce token would make them basically immune to that second attack.

B Wing were dead long before TLT came on to the scene. Phantoms Dash and re-positioners and High agility killed them off. but we did have one player win a tournament flying 2 Blues with HLC and FCS and I have found

TLT can only give 2 Damage and no crits. Yes 4 can take down a B Wing in one round if they all hit but 4 B Wing can also take out a Y Wing in that same round next round its a lot harder for 3 TLTs to take out a B Wing but 3 B Wings still can take out a Y Wing.

 

 

The trouble is TLT is a 6 point upgrade any change to how it functions and we will here nothing but how over costed it is. The only ships in the game that really have a problem are the Ghost and Decimator as they have no chance to evade but they can beat TLTs just learn to "fly better"

 

When Synced Turret come out I wont be flying TLT anymore

Kavil — Y-Wing 24
Opportunist 4
Synced Turret 4
Unhinged Astromech 1
Ship Total: 33

paired with Palob that's 5 dice into my opponents ships that can often do a lot more damage then 4 TLT's and I'll still have other ships to shoot

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1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think the Super Miranda list is hugely interesting to fly as you try to juggle your options every turn.  She's certainly a daunting opponent, but then she costs Super Dash money so what do you expect?

I like her so much I dedicated an entire blog to how skill-intensive she is! http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-girl-ive-heard-so-much-about.html

Very much so. Miranda requires quite a bit of skill as opposed to the Pavlovian arc-dodging response of super aces, or point-and-click of U-boat days. Definitely a fun ship to fly, as well as competitive. (As opposed to A-Wings which are fun but toothless)

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Easy fix:  Have them roll as many dice as the printed agility number on the pilot card of their target (to a minimum of 1).

Still good vs. 3 agility aces but not as good vs. lesser agility ships.

Edited by Veldrin

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13 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

I don't think anyone would ever take a TLT if it only ever did one damage.

You can nerf the TLT but it isn't going to bring a renaissance of all these other turrets.  The R1-2 restriction is fairly daunting for a ship that's expected to be using it as its primary means of attack.

I don't necessarily think TLTs ran off the straight jousters, either(in fact you can make a TLT Y-wing a straight jouster with a pretty insane level of offense if you want but that's not particularly viable outside the stresshog).

To be fair, I have played games against quad TLTS- they are an absolute grind but they tend to come out close every time against a well-built list so I don't mind it so much.

An interesting thought: what if it always did exactly two damage, but only if both attacks hit?  That way it still does consistent damage against low-agility ships, but it's much more easily dodged by high-agility ships.

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3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

An interesting thought: what if it always did exactly two damage, but only if both attacks hit?  That way it still does consistent damage against low-agility ships, but it's much more easily dodged by high-agility ships.

That would make it really swingy- you'd probably only ever see it on the ships that can modify both shots like the hera-TLT or kanan-biggs-m9G8.

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4 minutes ago, Veldrin said:

Easy fix:  Have them roll as many dice as the printed agility number on the pilot card of their target (to a minimum of 1).

Still good vs. 3 agility aces but not as good vs. lesser agility ships.

This is like... the opposite f what it's supposed to do.

It's supposed to kill low agi ships and not kill high agi ships.  The fact that it does BOTH too well is the issue.

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8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

If it was destroying the game, I think the game might have died before Wave 11 was announced. TLTs came out with the K-Wing sometime in 2015. You're looking at four waves, a new core set, a new epic and a veterans pack. I wouldn't think this was indicative of a game being destroyed.

...maybe the K-Wing expansion was the real problem.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Moreover, Wave 11 gives TLTs another platform.  FFG doesn't seem too worried about them.

...yes, here we go, if you want something nerfed, you first make it something in the Imperial toybox, then, it'll be nerfed.

8 hours ago, Imperial Mike said:

Was gonna make that point. I think when you see TLTs on every faction, and they become auto include for Imps.. well then they might look

I don't think they're destroying the game, but they do warp the meta in a serious way in making many ships less viable. 

This. The Imps are a nerf magnet. It'll happen soon after wave 11, just before Worlds when, and if, they make a real meta splash.

Edited by clanofwolves

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6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This is like... the opposite f what it's supposed to do.

It's supposed to kill low agi ships and not kill high agi ships.  The fact that it does BOTH too well is the issue.

It has to be at least decent against a variety of targets to be worth 6 points.  Nobody is taking the TLT as just a secondary attack.  It's too expensive for that.

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8 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

It has to be at least decent against a variety of targets to be worth 6 points.  Nobody is taking the TLT as just a secondary attack.  It's too expensive for that.

And if it murders 0, 1, and 2 agility ships with more or less equal proficiency, but struggles against 3 agility ships with or without autothrusters, it does that.

Currently it does reliable damage against basically everything except 3 agility ships with big token stacks or autothrusters.

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Just now, thespaceinvader said:

And if it murders 0, 1, and 2 agility ships with more or less equal proficiency, but struggles against 3 agility ships with or without autothrusters, it does that.

Currently it does reliable damage against basically everything except 3 agility ships with big token stacks or autothrusters.

I think it would actually be pretty weak to two agi as well and weaker in general because if you flub one roll you do no damage AND you have a donut hole.

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Giving it weaknesses!

It should have weaknesses.  Note that it costs only a point less than HLC and does similar if not more reliable damage to high agility aces unless you have a gunner effect.  And it can fire out of arc.

If anything I'd probably argue it would be pretty balanced at 8 points.

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19 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

If we nerf TLT do we go all the way back to wave 5 launch and the falcon meta?

No we dont cause falcons are evaporated by alpha rockets even faster than by TLT.

Edited by Vitalis

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8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Giving it weaknesses!

It should have weaknesses.  Note that it costs only a point less than HLC and does similar if not more reliable damage to high agility aces unless you have a gunner effect.  And it can fire out of arc.

If anything I'd probably argue it would be pretty balanced at 8 points.

It does have weaknesses as is.  Your proposed change makes it swingier and weaker.  Why would you pay so many points for something unreliable?

To put it in perspective your TLT would have about a 36% chance to do any damage to a 2 agi ship on unmodified dice on both sides.

Edited by Panzeh

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I'm not saying the fix I proposed is perfect.  I've suggested probably half a dozen different nerfs in this thread alone.

I'm saying that TLTs are currently too powerful and have too few weaknesses for their points cost.

I'm saying a TLT is probably better than an HLC, and I'd probably rather have a TLT in almost all contexts, which given that it's a point cheaper, really shouldn't be the case.

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Just now, thespaceinvader said:

I'm not saying the fix I proposed is perfect.  I've suggested probably half a dozen different nerfs in this thread alone.

I'm saying that TLTs are currently too powerful and have too few weaknesses for their points cost.

I'm saying a TLT is probably better than an HLC, and I'd probably rather have a TLT in almost all contexts, which given that it's a point cheaper, really shouldn't be the case.

I don't think these two upgrades are really comparable.  The HLC is pretty weak in a vacuum.  It only really makes sense when you can fire it 360 or have a free gunner effect on it.  It's also not in the same role and slot.

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8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'm saying a TLT is probably better than an HLC, and I'd probably rather have a TLT in almost all contexts, which given that it's a point cheaper, really shouldn't be the case.

It's a point cheaper than HLC in theory, but in practice it isn't.

The TLT is undercosted by 1-3 points accounting for the ships that are able to carry it being overcosted by about the same amount.

The bare HWK isn't worth 16 points. Attack 1, Agility 2, 5 health and horrible dial.
The bare Y-wing isn't worth 18 points. Attack 2, Agility 1, 8 health and bad dial.
The bare K-wing isn't worth 23 points. Attack 2 turret, Agility 1 and 9 health, with the most limited dial in the game. (For 2 points more you get the Jumpmaster 5000. For 1 point less you get an Attack 3 B-Wing)

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