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Talamare

Twin Laser Turret is destroying the game

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45 minutes ago, TheOz said:


Also it is far better then any other turret, even at 6 points it's obviously under costed because it shuts out every other option.

But does this happen because TLT is too good,or because other turrets are too bad?

 

IMO it's mainly the latter. Most turrets (all but dorsal) and ships that carry them (Hwk and Y-Wing) were out for a while before TLT and you weren't exactly seeing them in droves, were you?

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It's a 6 point upgrade. It had better be good*. I don't begrudge anybody who flies TLT's. Yeah, it's simple, but so is a fat turret ship. A TLT spam guy is going to have to think a lot harder about his 4 Y's, HWK's, and eventually Aggressors, than anyone has to about a PS 7-11 turret with an engine upgrade and/or barrel roll.  The ghost with a TLT is just another fat turret ship. 

I hated them the fist time or two I flew against them. Then I started picking my engagements better and getting into those doughnut holes. It's still challenging, but far from unbeatable. 

 

 

*for 1 point more it'd cost the same as a heavy laser cannon.  If you made it 2 points more it'd be palpatine. 

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19 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

This again? No, TLT isn't broken. No, it isn't dominating the meta. Yes, it can be hard to beat in the hands of a skilled player; so can most other lists. Yes, you might not enjoy it as much as other lists, feel free to play someone else.

 

There, I think that covered it :P

RoV

It is broken

It is dominating the meta

Tournament Players are either being beat by it or are using it

 

There, I think that covers it ;)

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54 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

But does this happen because TLT is too good,or because other turrets are too bad?

 

IMO it's mainly the latter. Most turrets (all but dorsal) and ships that carry them (Hwk and Y-Wing) were out for a while before TLT and you weren't exactly seeing them in droves, were you?

The biggest issue was that the Devs were still trying to keep Blaster Turret relevant by making all newer turrets, not better at range 2. Dorsal was lower firepowe unless at range 1, autoblaster was only at range 1 and lower firepower, Ion can only do one damage and cost more. TLTs were capped at 2 and cost 2 more points (but the range made them better). The new Sync turret is exactly like blaster turret only it uses a target lock and it does not require you to spend it. now of course focus will go away if you don't spend it but atleast you still have the option to modify dice or save it for defense if needed. Furthermore with synd if in arc you could reroll without spending target lock token.

Come to think of it, might be a good idea for a Blaster turret buff. Does not discard, and if in arc you can modify a <focus> to a hit result.

There Blaster turret fixed and not more powerful then Synced turrets.

Edited by Marinealver

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1 minute ago, Talamare said:

It is broken

It is dominating the meta

Tournament Players are either being beat by it or are using it

 

There, I think that covers it ;)

Not anyone's fault but their own if tournament players can't figure out how to out-fly a two year old list... seriously, half an hour on youtube and you can get the basic's of counterflying thug life. And don't tell me no one has time for that, because were talking about comepitive play here, it would be in your best interest to learn how to fly against certain builds. 

TLT is not broken. You roll 6 dice. Your opponent takes 2 damage. Even stacked with 4 TLT, that's only 8 damage a turn, and unless you brought TIE fighter aces or something else off the wall to a regional tournament, you'll be fine. TLT's love time. You can eliminate 1 TLT a turn, you save yourself 2 damage.

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The problem with TLT is not that it is unbeatable, or even that it is over powered. Rather: it does too good a job at guaranteeing damage. B-Wings and other 1 agility ships are pushed out of the game.

Thus, if they are going to nerf TLTs, I think they should limit the red dice of the second shot to the agility of the defender (minimum of 1). This would let TLTs do token stripping and attacks against high agility ships, but give low agility ships a chance to breath a bit. 

This would also help Huge ships, as a reinforce token would make them basically immune to that second attack.

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For something to the broken (in terms of being too powerful) at the very least (there are other criteria too) it needs to see regular high placing in the top tournaments.  TLT based squadrons do not do this.  Therefore they are not broken.

They may very well dominate certain local groups but that doesn't mean the rules need to change.  If folk want to play in such groups and don't like it then they either need to adapt (pick one of the many squadrons that have an easy time against the TLTs) and start winning all the time, encourage other folk to change, or go elsewhere.

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I don't think it's 'broken' but that's not the only reason to change a card.

I do think playing against multiple TLTs on the table is a frustrating experience that has very little to do with the interesting elements of the game.  It's the x-wing equivalent of infinite monkeys and their typewriters - roll 24 red dice per turn and some of them are going to hit.

Its also completely oppressive on some ships and on other turret options.  FFG might as well not print other turrets (Autoblaster aside) for all that they see play.  That alone tells you TLT stands head and shoulders above in power level.

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If Quad TLT is a problem then fly this...

Guri — StarViper  
Lone Wolf  
Sensor Jammer  
Glitterstim  
Autothrusters  
Virago  

Ship Total: 41

 

No one fly's Quad TLT in our area because they know I fly this and they can not beat Guri with this load out.

Unless I fly really REALLY BAD or the dice gods really hate me and my opponent rolls nothing but crits 

fly it and keep flying it and till they realise they can not beat it/

add what ever else you want to the list but you wont need it as I have found Guri is enough

 

But if you really want to troll them

Guri — StarViper 30
Lone Wolf 2
Sensor Jammer 4
Glitterstim 2
Autothrusters 2
Virago 1
Ship Total: 41
   
Black Sun Soldier — Z-95 Headhunter 13
Assault Missiles 5
Glitterstim 2
Guidance Chips 0
Ship Total: 20
   
Black Sun Soldier — Z-95 Headhunter 13
Assault Missiles 5
Glitterstim 2
Guidance Chips 0
Ship Total: 20
   
Black Sun Soldier — Z-95 Headhunter 13
Assault Missiles 5
Guidance Chips 0
Ship Total: 18

 

 

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The thing about TLT isn't that it is overpower per say (and it certainly can be beaten) but that it reduces diversity in terms of ships and upgrades.

For ships, TLT puts a tight squeeze on many 0 or 1 defense die ships, and even doing pretty well against those low health 2 agility ships. TLT almost completely removed the B-wing from the game and other ships, such as the Mist Hunter, were dead upon arrival because of the pre-existing TLT.

TLT also has a monopoly upon the turret upgrade slot. If it did not exist Ion, Synced, Dorsal, and Autoblaster turrets all would compete fairly well with each other for that same position.

In conclusion, I would say either ban TLT or make it unique. 

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TLT again? :D Thats "new " :D

 

@OP - i managed to be on par (game ended with last Y on 1 or 2 hulls and that only cause i sacrifices too few virgins to dice gods)  3xTLT+Gunner with a non- biggs Ghost, where it your TLTOP now?

Edited by Vitalis

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Turrets themselves are good. Turrets that can hit at range 3 are even better. What's the only add on turret that hits at range 3?

That is your problem. The add on turret simply needs a usable range 3 turret to compete for that slot with TLT. Otherwise yeah, it is TLT spam since there is nothing else for that slot that is any good. The other thing that can be done is to take a ship with a turret primary, which is done a lot.

You might actually be complaining about turret spam more than TLT which has its limitations. Of course another turret won't solve the turret spam issue but at least it will dilute the TLT hate.

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One final thing, the people defending TLT are doing so on valid grounds (that it's not really dominating anything) but what I've not really seen is anybody saying that it makes for a fun game.

I think TLT should stick around as some builds like Miranda and the Stressbot are interesting and useful, but I'd like to lose it being spammed mindlessly onto the table.  A unique fix doesn't make much fluff sense to me as it's not named or titled in any way, but I think it would be beneficial in gameplay terms.

The other approach, like I outlined above, is to subtly nerf it's damage output so you can't rely on it so much to do all the work for you.  A TLT you can't modify dice on would still work on Stressbot and Miranda but would probably be enough to end quad TLT lists.

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Has anyone yet considered nerfing the TLT to deal maximum 1 damage per turn? 

First attack hits, deal 1 dmg, do not attack again. 

First attack misses, attack again. 

 

Simple. This way TLT would still do a good job stripping evades from a high agility target, but not be too effective against a low agility target. 

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24 minutes ago, LeiserLers said:

Has anyone yet considered nerfing the TLT to deal maximum 1 damage per turn? 

First attack hits, deal 1 dmg, do not attack again. 

First attack misses, attack again. 

 

Simple. This way TLT would still do a good job stripping evades from a high agility target, but not be too effective against a low agility target. 

Against a high agility target TLT has an average damage out put of only 1 damage per turn. Say you are attacking a TIE Interceptor with both focus and evade. You have only a 14% chance of doing a single hit. So lets say you were trying to strip tokens off the first attack. You will need at least 2 hits. So 2 hits on a 3 dice attack around 35%. So a 35% chance of stripping tokens. Okay so the second attack lets just say all the tokens were spent thanks to a bad roll. 3 dice to make 1 hit is about 46% of doing damage. So there you go 1 damage to high agility token tank targets that don't have a lot of hit points. 2 damage to everything else but they tend to have more than 3 hit points.

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46 minutes ago, LeiserLers said:

Has anyone yet considered nerfing the TLT to deal maximum 1 damage per turn? 

First attack hits, deal 1 dmg, do not attack again. 

First attack misses, attack again. 

 

Simple. This way TLT would still do a good job stripping evades from a high agility target, but not be too effective against a low agility target. 

It's *meant* to be effective against low agility targets.  It's the high-agi ones that are caught in the crossfire.

My preference is to make the second attack conditional on something, e.g. having a Target Lock, or having the target in arc.  Or indeed, per the below, maybe having them at range 2.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Miranda and the Stressbot are interesting and useful

Miranda (and to a lesser extent K Wings in general) are the reason I want to see TLTs (or K wings) nerfed somehow.  They're the single least interesting ship in the game to fly against and the single biggest ship in the game to utterly kill my agency as a player.  Though that's partly because they back up the TLT with a PWT AND bombs AND SLAM AND a capable alpha AND Miranda can Regen whilst still doing solidly consistent damage.

Stresshog's not so bad.

I don;t find TLTs too bad generally as long as they're a: not spammed and b: not on a K Wing.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

Turrets themselves are good. Turrets that can hit at range 3 are even better. What's the only add on turret that hits at range 3?

I think this is a key point.  Being able hit range 3 is one of the things that makes TLT so amazing - because it covers the biggest area of all the turret upgrades and keeps you much better able to kite the outskirts of the fight rather than take risks to get into range.  Maybe making the second attack contingent on being at range 2 would be a possible fix...

And that's not even taking into account that it has by far the most reliable damage of all the turret upgrades.

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