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Twin Laser Turret is destroying the game

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The great TLT debate returns. 

A few points: 

  • Yes they can be beaten by a skilled player
  • They have a serious weakness (doughnut hole)

But I'll be frank they're easy mode. Little skill in using them. No downside. You can be stressed, Ionised, on debris. It's also a spam attack. We've just seen cards/upgrades nerfed primarily because they're was no downside to taking them: TLT falls into the same category. Is there any reason to take other turrets over TLT? (Dash don't count). 

A 6 dice attack, coz that's what it is, will overwhelm most Imperial ships. There's a big reason you're not seeing many ships in the game. 

If the Tie/x7 can be sensibly fixed (and I fly defenders and strongly agree with the nerf) than the same can happen to TLT. 

Upgrades that require no planning, thought or consideration run counter to the spirit of the game. 

The TLT should require a target lock on the ship it's attacking - it means you don't just spam. Not a nerf, but a fix.

As others have noted there is no point playing any other kind of turret. Even at 6pts they're a steal. 

 

Edited by Imperial Mike

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6 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

If it was destroying the game, I think the game might have died before Wave 11 was announced. TLTs came out with the K-Wing sometime in 2015. You're looking at four waves, a new core set, a new epic and a veterans pack. I wouldn't think this was indicative of a game being destroyed.

Moreover, Wave 11 gives TLTs another platform.  FFG doesn't seem too worried about them.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Moreover, Wave 11 gives TLTs another platform.  FFG doesn't seem too worried about them.

Was gonna make that point. I think when you see TLTs on every faction, and they become auto include for Imps.. well then they might look. 

I don't think they're destroying the game, but they do warp the meta in a serious way in making many ships less viable. 

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18 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

True, but I think when the designers first made turrets as upgrades, they never intended them to be your primary damage dealer

The hwk disagrees. Even the ywing has never really used its primaty for its main gun

Edited by VanderLegion

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19 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

True, but I think when the designers first made turrets as upgrades, they never intended them to be your primary damage dealer. I think they were intended to be powerful but situational. As it stands, the TLT is so good, it shuts all of the other turrets except Autoblaster, mainly because it is the cheapest (and it's effect is brutal when it triggers). I would like to see more variance in the turrets. Like with the new turret coming out, you need a TL, which in many cases (especially with the opening joust for a low PS) is going to be hard to do, when TLT are just easy street. What I am trying to say is that the designers work hard on these turrets, that no one will use. LOL. If they slightly nerf TLT, so it is still solid, it might allow some other turrets to rise to the top and be used again.

I think, more what you'd see is that the ships that rely on turrets not being used if the turrets are less good in general.  The Y-wing doesn't really do anything else but carry a turret.

Miranda would be used less.  I don't think you'd see people reaching out for the synced turret on anything with a low PS because it's significantly harder to get value out of that now.

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Here is a better question:  Are TLT's good for the game?  I don't think we need them to keep Fat Han from returning us to the dark days of the wave 5 meta.  Alpha strikes will wreck him just fine.  I'm not going to cry for a nerf at the moment.  But, IMHO, the twin laser turret is the biggest mistake in the game that doesn't rhyme with "dumpcaster."  It's undercosted, metawarping, and boring as can be.

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TLT brought back on the table a few ships that were collecting dust in someones collection. They Y-Wing saw major use again (although it had started coming back with BTL) and Hawks now have chance to actually do damage and not fly support only.  Like may others said, they can be countered easily, so I hope they don't nerf them.

 

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As other people have mentioned, Y-wings and HWKs would take a hit potentially (People concerned with the Ep. IV ships getting play time should be especially concerned about that). 

 

But think about those ships that are made more viable because TLT can prey on the builds they're weak against. Low PS jousters, some mid-PS aces, all like to have TLTs alongside to keep opposing aces and turrets honest. (Potentially. I'm posting this more to generate discussion than to state my opinion.)

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7 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

I think, more what you'd see is that the ships that rely on turrets not being used if the turrets are less good in general.  The Y-wing doesn't really do anything else but carry a turret.

Miranda would be used less.  I don't think you'd see people reaching out for the synced turret on anything with a low PS because it's significantly harder to get value out of that now.

My thoughts as well. Right now a TLT Y-Wing is a solid 24 point ship.

 

Let's say TLTs are nerfed. Why would anyone field a different turret Y-Wing for 21-23 points when a Contracted Scout is 25 points?

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2 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

That said, I had the Inquisitor take on a TLT Ghost single handed the other night and win (Vader and OL went down but helped get rid of Biggs before they did).  Between all the tokens, autothrusters and some amazing dice; the Ghost just couldn't land the hits and was able to pummel the Ghost consistently.

At Hoth I did nearly the same thing.... 1 hull Inquisitor with Juke and Autothrusters dropped Kanan TLT with docked Zeb and M9 Biggs... Little bugger ran the table. I almost cried. 

So yes, if a 1 hull TIE can do it, the things not too game breaking. 

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3 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I'd like to see each additional shot with a TLT lose a die. 

So YWing would get 3 then 2

Kavil would get 4 then 3

Ghost gets 3 then 2 then 1 then 1

Miranda has shown that doing that isn't that big of a hit to your damage output.

Here's a better idea.  Have the two shots be based off the defender's agility value.

Agility 3+: Standard double 3-dice attack

Agility 2: Double 2-dice attack

Agility 1-0: Double 1-die attack

Now lower agility ships have at least a fighting chance against the TLT shots.

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38 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Here is a better question:  Are TLT's good for the game?  I don't think we need them to keep Fat Han from returning us to the dark days of the wave 5 meta.  Alpha strikes will wreck him just fine.  I'm not going to cry for a nerf at the moment.  But, IMHO, the twin laser turret is the biggest mistake in the game that doesn't rhyme with "dumpcaster."  It's undercosted, metawarping, and boring as can be.

Edit: Forget it. It's late and I got caught up with the "caster" part of the rhyme. Carry on.

Edited by SabineKey
Rhyming

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4 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Miranda has shown that doing that isn't that big of a hit to your damage output.

Here's a better idea.  Have the two shots be based off the defender's agility value.

Agility 3+: Standard double 3-dice attack

Agility 2: Double 2-dice attack

Agility 1-0: Double 1-die attack

Now lower agility ships have at least a fighting chance against the TLT shots.

Lower agility ships should have a worse chance.  That's why the stat line exists.  This isn't millennial "everybody gets a ribbon" wing. 

And Miranda is a freak... No rebalance that's universal should be based off her. 

Jumpcasters compete with Cloaks for biggest playtest fail btw. 

Edited by Lobokai

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TLTs were the response to the super defensive tank meta especially token tanks like Soontir and hard 2 damage mitigation like Fat Han w/ C-3P0 & title. The fact that the meta was filled with ships that can promise 2 evades every turn you needed a way to throw more dice to get more than 2 hits without doing more than 2 damage. TLTs were the answer. They can throw out 6 dice but are capped at 2 damage. You couldn't make it only 2 dice because that still allowed for Palp & autothrusters and falcon title & C-3PO to block the good roll and not get touched. So 3 dice attack for 2 attacks and any attack that hits only does 1 damage. Now it still kills agility 0-1 but it was made to go after evade tokens palp/C-3po and the like that kept the swiss going to time.

However I do have an idea to fix TLTs when Wave 11 comes around. You know that reinforce token, if you have it changed from add 1 evade result to blocks 1  damage it will stop TLTs all together. It will also help huge ships in the meta as they also melt to TLT spam. 

Edited by Marinealver

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Here, how about this. TLT is made a HWK only upgrade. Puff. Detractors get the reduced number of TLTs, and my HWKs can keep the edge they need. Everyone's happy. (No, not really, but I'm currently tired, and this settles all my problems.)

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Here, how about this. TLT is made a HWK only upgrade. Puff. Detractors get the reduced number of TLTs, and my HWKs can keep the edge they need. Everyone's happy. (No, not really, but I'm currently tired, and this settles all my problems.)

NO!

You are not going to steal the glorious super weapon from the imperials the moment they just got it. :angry:

Go jump out an airlock Rebel Scum!!!!:P

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1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

TLTs came out with the K-Wing, right? If the complaints are only showing up on Reddit now I have to assume those are relatively new players. They were once hailed as THE answer to Fat PWTs. People are never happy.

I was talking about R3, but yeah there's a "King for a day" type thread on Reddit again - top contenders are TLT and R3, along with the usual round of "how do we un-**** the Jump" and a few people still mad about Mindlink. And PGS is really upset about Rey+Kanan+Sloop Title for some reason - must be seeing a lot of that locally I don't think I've yet seen a lot of Rey in top tournament lists overall. 

Edited by UnitOmega

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3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I was talking about R3, but yeah there's a "King for a day" type thread on Reddit again - top contenders are TLT and R3, along with the usual round of "how do we un-**** the Jump" and a few people still mad about Mindlink. And PGS is really upset about Rey+Kanan+Sloop Title for some reason - must be seeing a lot of that locally I don't think I've yet seen a lot of Rey in top tournament lists overall. 

Hahahaha

and PGS said he rather liked Rey back when he was here. 

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Ok tlt...let's start

First, the argument that a skilled player can beat it....yeah a skilled player can also beat pre nerf defenders, palp lists, Paratanni, dengaroo, dead eye u boats, and may i say even pre nerf phantoms. The idea that because a skilled player can beat it, doesn't mean it's good for the game.

Also let's say a skilled player uses tlt..yeah you jump into range one of one, but your still hit by 3 others. Autothrusters is great against this...but anything imperial without it is playing a far more difficult game then their opponent. 

Also it is far better then any other turret, even at 6 points it's obviously under costed because it shuts out every other option. If there was a 6 point ept that shut out every other option...obviously it would be op to some degree

I'm not saying it needs to be removed from the game, I feel it's style  of counter play has a place in the game, but it needs and adjustment,just like all the cards that just got nerfed

 

Range 3 bonus is even fair enough,just give us a pinch more counter play, or a target lock requirement, I don't want to kill it all together, just give some ships options to deal with it. 

It feels like Defenders to me, like you could beat them, but you had to work a lot harder then them to win, let's make it more of a game on both sides.

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34 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Here, how about this. TLT is made a HWK only upgrade. Puff. Detractors get the reduced number of TLTs, and my HWKs can keep the edge they need. Everyone's happy. (No, not really, but I'm currently tired, and this settles all my problems.)

I don't think anyone would be happy. The TLT fans of course would be upset over the nerf, and the TLT haters would just move on to being upset about whatever the new thing they are getting beat by is. 

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I don't understand why this argument is necroed, has the meta shifted to 4 TLTs while I was in a coma?

Any list that brings 4 TLTs HAS to be with very low PS, so unless you are flying like a donkey, one should be able to kill one of the TLT bearing ships before it even gets to shoot at you. A squad that fields TLT ships, in order to be of any serious threat, should not have more than 2 of them. 4 TLT never was and will never be a serious threat, even more so now that you regularly see squads where a single ship can roll +5 dice in one attack.

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11 minutes ago, tsondaboy said:

I don't understand why this argument is necroed, has the meta shifted to 4 TLTs while I was in a coma?

There's not much else to complain about, other than stress control and maybe Sabine/Bombs and the same ol' with Mindlink. And the new wave has announced that not only will Empire get a ship which can carry TLT, the pack will come with a new source of TLT. 

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