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BlodVargarna

Return to dogfighting: turret nerf idea

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3 minutes ago, charlesanakin said:

Turrets, TLTs, PWTs all should have had a mechanic similar to the Lancer from the very beginning. You should have a primary arc and a turret mobile turret arc which you can move each turn and cover port, starboard or aft but only 1 of the three. Done. Don't have to change ranges or dice. Turrets now require some skill to use. And it's not much of a nerf for anything. 

Wins the internet for today. 

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23 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Secondary weapon turrets: when defending against and a turret secondary weapon, the defender gains an additional evade die beyond range 2. 

Primary weapon turrets: when making an attack with your primary weapon turret, if the defender is outside of your firing arc, you do not add an attack die within range 1. 

 

 

I really like your idea. It's simple to implement and looks like a balanced step in the right direction

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9 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Turrets, TLTs, PWTs all should have had a mechanic similar to the Lancer from the very beginning. You should have a primary arc and a turret mobile turret arc which you can move each turn and cover port, starboard or aft but only 1 of the three. Done. Don't have to change ranges or dice. Turrets now require some skill to use. And it's not much of a nerf for anything. 

I've never been entirely fond of the exact mechanics of the Lancer's mobile Arc. If you're at higher PS, it's still basically a PWT, just with an action-tax. I think a better solution would be to determine whether you were covering port, starboard, aft, of forward arc* during the planning phase via a dial much like maneuvers. That way it isn't an action tax for action-starved ships, but high PS ships could still be arc dodged if you predicted where the turret arc was going to be rotated to, and maneuvered accordingly.

 

*Yes, in this system, turrets would not be able to fire out of the primary firing arc if your arc was rotated to a different quadrant.

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9 hours ago, Imperial Mike said:

Sorry, wasn't been clear enough - I also was referring to other secondary weapons such as ordinance. Most missles/torps require a resource (focus/TL). 

I agree Hawks need something that works, but the TLT is a band aid for ship that is badly designed. If a ship can't be used with a specific upgrade, then the ship is not any good. 

Re other turrets: 

  • Ion is not bad but is limited to R2 - has control but less damage. Not suited to current meta of high damage/burst damage
  • Dorsal - no one, no one even thinks it's remotely good. Have to be in R1 to get extra dice, thus easily dodged 
  • Autoblaster is ok, but shines with AC... on a Ghost. 

For 6pts you get a turret that: 

  • Requires no resources
  • Can do a consistent, almost guaranteed 2 damage
  • Strips players of tokens in the first shot
  • Stress, Ion and debris effects do not impact/impinge. 

I mean you can be stressed, Ionised and fly onto a piece of debris and still shoot twice and do 2 damage. Right. And people weep tears of rage over the x/7 getting evades when bumped. 

Personally I think there are tooo many turrets in the game. No real dog fighting, which is why I'm looking at the newly released Wings of Glory. 

I've flown TLTs a bit, and I think they're kinda.. easy.

Part of the reason no one uses the turrets you've cited (except corner cases like AB/AC on a Ghost) is that the TLT is that much better and requires no skill/resources to use with limited downsides. 

IMHO that puts it in the same camp of Palp, x/7 and Zuckess when: 

  • Warps the meta
  • Makes other choices less/not viable
  • Has no resource tax/downside
  • Is easy mode - there is 0 skill in using a TLT. 

Just my thoughts. 

While I understand your view point, you are still evaluating turrets when compared to torpedoes and missiles, not cannons, who they have more similarities with. For 4 points, you can get a mangler cannon that is just as immune to stress, bumping, and the like, and fires a consistent 3 dice, plus gets to turn a hit to a crit. 

I disagree that it takes zero skill to fly TLT. I'm not saying it's got a high ceiling either, but you do have to be careful, or your enemy is gonna get up into your donut hole.

I can't disagree that HWKs are poorly designed (of to have a HWK as it is described in lore), but I still love 'em, and I'm gonna use what I have to to keep 'em flying.

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23 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

While I understand your view point, you are still evaluating turrets when compared to torpedoes and missiles, not cannons, who they have more similarities with. For 4 points, you can get a mangler cannon that is just as immune to stress, bumping, and the like, and fires a consistent 3 dice, plus gets to turn a hit to a crit. 

I disagree that it takes zero skill to fly TLT. I'm not saying it's got a high ceiling either, but you do have to be careful, or your enemy is gonna get up into your donut hole.

I can't disagree that HWKs are poorly designed (of to have a HWK as it is described in lore), but I still love 'em, and I'm gonna use what I have to to keep 'em flying.

Canons are not 360 arc weapons (except for one ship). They can be arc dodged.

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Not as versed as some. But, I have always defined broken mechanics or lists at things that are not fun to play with or against. At Hoth, where I went 1-6 (take my input with a lump of salt), I ran into TLTs and they were not fun to lose to. As a secondary weapon I did not get my range bonus and they were rolling six or seven dice in a couple rolls and doing two damage. As a first step, give the defender the range bonus on turreted weapons. If you would get the range from a primary weapon, why not the secondary as well.

Make a small change first and see if that brings it back in balance.

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On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 5:34 PM, ForceM said:

No nerfs or buffs needed.

Except for really game breaking stuff. Like the old Phantom, or the old Deadeye U-Boats.

You know, builds that really need to be hard-countered or bust.

TLT is none of these, nor are or were PWT.

I am not even sure the game needed Emperor or Manaroo and Co. to be nerfed. It feels kinda just that imperial forum jocks fall on their faces after 2 years, and their tears taste sweet indeed, but from a gaming standpoint, i had nothing against Palpy nor against his Ace Circus. I liked Soontir, Defenders and all the rest of them. Even painted a Shuttle and one of each TIE red to play Palpmobile myself...

They need to be gentle with the nerfbat and i hope they are again done with major changes for the next 2 years. That would be the best for X-Wing. Balancing by releasing new stuff, positive, buff fixes for underused ships and maybe a very gentle power creep to keep us on our toes. That's what i see as the best future for this game.

This

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On 27.3.2017 at 6:48 AM, Imperial Mike said:

I've flown TLTs a bit, and I think they're kinda.. easy.

Part of the reason no one uses the turrets you've cited (except corner cases like AB/AC on a Ghost) is that the TLT is that much better and requires no skill/resources to use with limited downsides. 

IMHO that puts it in the same camp of Palp, x/7 and Zuckess when: 

  • Warps the meta
  • Makes other choices less/not viable
  • Has no resource tax/downside
  • Is easy mode - there is 0 skill in using a TLT. 

Just my thoughts. 

This is the part where you go wrong.

Warps the meta? It's around for ages and 4YTLTs were a thing once but are most clearly not anymore. Once people countered them they did not di well anymore.

It is also not the TLTs fault if other turrets are pretty much crap. And they are. Goes from situational to overcosted to unusably bad. No one blames Vader for outshining the other Advanced pilots so you hardly see them either...

Has no downside? Well yes you have a R1 Donut... and its 6 points.

The skill argument is a special case. Let's take at the top TLT builds. There are 3 at the moment. So let's look at this more in detail:

Kanan Jarrus shoots you in the face 4 times and is difficult to kill because of Biggs. But then you need to keep formation with biggs and get your primaries to work too. This is not at all an easy list to fly and needs both formation flight and excellent range management, and it has hard counters too (Side arc Range 1 and Ordnance) so no skill does absolutely not apply here.

Miranda. She is both an endgame menace and a glass cannon. If you let her get get caught and focused, she is G O N E. no greens to save you, no second chance. If you fly her correctly she is tough as nails. This means exactly knowing when to strike, when to Slam when to regen, when to bomb and when to missile! She is more of a hardcore arc-dodger than any imperial ship you find in reality, and has a huge skill cap. If you call this easy mode you understand nothing about X-Wing.

Stresshog. Does in 90% of cases take the BTL-A4 title and is not a turret ship as such, so has to play maneuvering like anyone else. Has always been a fine choice but is not game-breaking because of TLT.

 

 

Edited by ForceM

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4 hours ago, ForceM said:

This is the part where you go wrong.

Warps the meta? It's around for ages and 4YTLTs were a thing once but are most clearly not anymore. Once people countered them they did not di well anymore.

It is also not the TLTs fault if other turrets are pretty much crap. And they are. Goes from situational to overcosted to unusably bad. No one blames Vader for outshining the other Advanced pilots so you hardly see them either...

Has no downside? Well yes you have a R1 Donut... and its 6 points.

The skill argument is a special case. Let's take at the top TLT builds. There are 3 at the moment. So let's look at this more in detail:

Kanan Jarrus shoots you in the face 4 times and is difficult to kill because of Biggs. But then you need to keep formation with biggs and get your primaries to work too. This is not at all an easy list to fly and needs both formation flight and excellent range management, and it has hard counters too (Side arc Range 1 and Ordnance) so no skill does absolutely not apply here.

Miranda. She is both an endgame menace and a glass cannon. If you let her get get caught and focused, she is G O N E. no greens to save you, no second chance. If you fly her correctly she is tough as nails. This means exactly knowing when to strike, when to Slam when to regen, when to bomb and when to missile! She is more of a hardcore arc-dodger than any imperial ship you find in reality, and has a huge skill cap. If you call this easy mode you understand nothing about X-Wing.

Stresshog. Does in 90% of cases take the BTL-A4 title and is not a turret ship as such, so has to play maneuvering like anyone else. Has always been a fine choice but is not game-breaking because of TLT.

 

 

Moral of the story, TLT is fine; Git Gud?  ... I agree.

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I know that it would add some book-keeping, which lots of people probably wouldn't like, but what if Turret secondary weapons had to specify which arc they were using before dials were revealed?

Turret: At the beginning of the activation phase before dials are revealed, each ship with a Turret upgrade card must specify which of the 4 ship facings the weapon is aiming in. Front, Right, Left, and Rear. The turret fires in a 45 degree area in the chosen arc. The weapon may only target enemy vessels in the chosen arc during the following Combat Phase. A ship may spend a target lock on an enemy ship during its Attack step to immediately move its turret to the arc in which the target locked's enemy resides. If a target lock is spent, the ship may only declare attacks vs the enemy that was target locked.

This would make you play a guessing game with your opponent's arc dodgers, just like a real turret operator would have to do. Target locks would make it "easier" to maintain visual on an enemy.

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2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

You want turrets to be nerfed. Bring back Alpha strike meta! Turrets nerfed, and if you can't arc dodge an alpha strike then you are not as good of a pilot as you think you are.

Y-wings with EM Torps and Chimps can eat up low PS TLT carriers quite easily.  Guri loves to dive into range one but she's a monster with Adv Protons and deadeye (chimps too unless you absolutely need AT).

 

 

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If TLTs were range 3 only then I believe they'd still see a lot of play, but without the swarm abuse that is currently common with them. They'd have the largest donut hole in the game, and become effective only against other turrets, since everything else has the capability to stay in range 2.

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It seems to me the TLT hate is a focused attack by people who just don't like turrets at all.  First it was the PWT but so many of those were "nerfed" when large ships could give up half of their points so easily or they were reduced to being 2 dice primaries which no one seems to think are worth running.  Because the PWT has been nerfed it's time to move on to the next thing that prevents world domination by arc dodgers and that would be the TLT which is the first turret upgrade to actually see significant play.

For all the calls that the TLT should still allow ships at R3 to gain bonus defense is there a reason that shouldn't apply to all cannons as well?  Of course if you apply the range penalty then they should also get to apply the range bonus which certainly would make some of the other turrets better but why design a 2 die R1 only attack if you're later going to make it 3 dice all the time.

 

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most turrets are fine, edging towards a little underpowered.

To me, only the tlt and the autoblaster turret stand out.

The autoblaster is undeniably brutal, but I think it's sufficiently limited by range for us not to do anything to it.

which just leaves the tlt....

 

Personally what I'd do for the tlt is to fix the firing twice problem, and I would do that by replacing the double shot with a "gunner like" effect. Allowing the tlt (if it misses) to take a second attack at the same ship, with the caveat of not being able to perform any more attacks this turn.

That should soften tlt's against the less agile ships, whilst still keeping them as a credible "anti ace" turret.

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