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BlodVargarna

Return to dogfighting: turret nerf idea

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Secondary weapon turrets: when defending against and a turret secondary weapon, the defender gains an additional evade die beyond range 2. 

Primary weapon turrets: when making an attack with your primary weapon turret, if the defender is outside of your firing arc, you do not add an attack die within range 1. 

 

 

Edited by BlodVargarna

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I don't think these nerfs are the solution. The secondary weapon turret nerf is just going to clutter up design space in the future. Better to just nerf TLT and be done with it. As for your suggestion for PWTs, it doesn't actually make much sense- Turrets want to run away and fire at long range while arc dodging, which your suggestion does nothing to change. If anything, it encourages that behavior. I guess you could add even more green dice at range 3, but now the mechanic just seems punitive. Better to make the turret mechanic more engaging for both players, like mobile arcs, but it's too late for that barring a second edition.

Edited by Squark

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Turrets should have high damage but low hit probability.  Ie:  the ship is moving in directions the gunner didn't know. Very hard to aim.  In movie- Chewy flew the Falcon straight while Han/Luke went to town. Out of movie- turrets have low hit rate and are mainly to keep fighter away from that section.  

Sooo....

Roll 2-3 red dice (depending on turret) then add "if this hits, cancel all hits and apply _______ damage"

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Before a nerf is needed, we should discuss why it is needed. 

So what ships/pilots are 360 turrets alone (not just TLTs) keeping out of the meta? 

Maybe there just need to be another counter to turrets similar to Autothrusters, but not require a boost action. A 1 point Modification  that allows the defender to change a focus result to an evade if out of arc (or just add this as an automatic rule when defending  out of arc). 

TLTs are basically keeping every other turret out, and they are currently the only turrets that extend to range 3. So one possible fix is to reclassify turrets as primary weapons so they are subject to range bonuses (but Auto blaster might be too powerful, so change that to 1 of your hit results can't be canceled). Giving 4 dice to Ion/Blaster Turrets at range 1 would be a nice benefit (Blaster Turrets just need to get rid of the spend condition). 

TLTs could also prevent spending a focus to modify attack dice (but still allow TL), this will not add much complexity and slightly weaken the consistency for low PS. 

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No nerfs or buffs needed.

Except for really game breaking stuff. Like the old Phantom, or the old Deadeye U-Boats.

You know, builds that really need to be hard-countered or bust.

TLT is none of these, nor are or were PWT.

I am not even sure the game needed Emperor or Manaroo and Co. to be nerfed. It feels kinda just that imperial forum jocks fall on their faces after 2 years, and their tears taste sweet indeed, but from a gaming standpoint, i had nothing against Palpy nor against his Ace Circus. I liked Soontir, Defenders and all the rest of them. Even painted a Shuttle and one of each TIE red to play Palpmobile myself...

They need to be gentle with the nerfbat and i hope they are again done with major changes for the next 2 years. That would be the best for X-Wing. Balancing by releasing new stuff, positive, buff fixes for underused ships and maybe a very gentle power creep to keep us on our toes. That's what i see as the best future for this game.

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14 minutes ago, Zura said:

Problem with tlt ban is that people will start shouting "buff ywings, such a iconic ship unused sniff sniff", otherwise im all for tlr ban.

Heh, don't forget HWKs. Might not be as iconic as the Y-Wing, but there are some of us that love it.

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you dont need to nerf turrets. You need to give options to defend against them. Autothrusters is great, unfortunately only small ships with Boost get them, making those 1 and 2 agility ships without boost **** near useless. We need more cards like Lightweight Frame. Give squad builders the option to counter turrets using our mod slot, or take another option like Engines, etc. Let us build for what hurts our list, not just go "Cant use this ship cause TLTs and PWTs will tear it apart." I want options!!! 

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Could we just remove the Boost requirement for Autothrusters? Just make them so every ship can take them. It's even pretty balanced with large ships- since they have less AGI they won't get as much out of it, less chance for the Autothrusters to do something. Hell it would make a bunch of ships instantly viable (like TIE Advanced for starters).

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Before Autothrusters, I'd have been on board for that PWT nerf.

After Autothrusters: good god, no. The only way PWTs have a chance against an arc-dodging high-PS ace with a stack of tokens and Autothrusters is to throw more red dice than they have in green dice.

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Nerfing only seems to be needed if a card is completely dominant or it pushes everything out of the meta, and then there can't be a way to counter it with a new release. TLTs don't fully meet any of these, but one could argue that they almost completely remove any other turret, to the point that the turret icon should just stand for TLT. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Imperial Mike said:

Agree. Worth testing and reporting back. 

I've thought TLT should have a target lock to fire. 

Most other turrets and secondary weapons requires a resource to use. TLT don't 

Not really. Only two turrets require a resource, the blaster turret and the synced turret. Ion, Dorsal, and Auto require nothing to fire like the TLT. Plus, turrets are much more like cannons, who don't require a resource to fire (though the Arc cannon is close), then they are like ordinance. I would honestly rather rebalance the other turrets to be more useful then require a resource for the TLT. HWKs need something that works.

I'm interest in the purposed rules alteration because it is a simple enough compromise that will hopefully appease most of the TLT's detractors. 

Edited by SabineKey

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1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Not really. Only two turrets require a resource, the blaster turret and the synced turret. Ion, Dorsal, and Auto require nothing to fire like the TLT. Plus, turrets are much more like cannons, who don't require a resource to fire (though the Arc cannon is close), then they are like ordinance. I would honestly rather rebalance the other turrets to be more useful then require a resource for the TLT. HWKs need something that works.

I'm interest in the purposed rules alteration because it is a simple enough compromise that will hopefully appease most of the TLT's detractors. 

Sorry, wasn't been clear enough - I also was referring to other secondary weapons such as ordinance. Most missles/torps require a resource (focus/TL). 

I agree Hawks need something that works, but the TLT is a band aid for ship that is badly designed. If a ship can't be used with a specific upgrade, then the ship is not any good. 

Re other turrets: 

  • Ion is not bad but is limited to R2 - has control but less damage. Not suited to current meta of high damage/burst damage
  • Dorsal - no one, no one even thinks it's remotely good. Have to be in R1 to get extra dice, thus easily dodged 
  • Autoblaster is ok, but shines with AC... on a Ghost. 

For 6pts you get a turret that: 

  • Requires no resources
  • Can do a consistent, almost guaranteed 2 damage
  • Strips players of tokens in the first shot
  • Stress, Ion and debris effects do not impact/impinge. 

I mean you can be stressed, Ionised and fly onto a piece of debris and still shoot twice and do 2 damage. Right. And people weep tears of rage over the x/7 getting evades when bumped. 

Personally I think there are tooo many turrets in the game. No real dog fighting, which is why I'm looking at the newly released Wings of Glory. 

I've flown TLTs a bit, and I think they're kinda.. easy.

Part of the reason no one uses the turrets you've cited (except corner cases like AB/AC on a Ghost) is that the TLT is that much better and requires no skill/resources to use with limited downsides. 

IMHO that puts it in the same camp of Palp, x/7 and Zuckess when: 

  • Warps the meta
  • Makes other choices less/not viable
  • Has no resource tax/downside
  • Is easy mode - there is 0 skill in using a TLT. 

Just my thoughts. 

Edited by Imperial Mike

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Turrets, TLTs, PWTs all should have had a mechanic similar to the Lancer from the very beginning. You should have a primary arc and a turret mobile turret arc which you can move each turn and cover port, starboard or aft but only 1 of the three. Done. Don't have to change ranges or dice. Turrets now require some skill to use. And it's not much of a nerf for anything. 

Btw I don't think that it should require an action like the Lancer. I think it should just happen after you execute your manoever. 

Edited by charlesanakin

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