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Thormind

Should i be upset?

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18 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Palpatine isn't part of the a triple ace list, which seemed to be what you were discussing:

He isn't, but your original argument was that Palp didn't work anymore, and I stated that triple aces are a viable alternative. Even without Palp, keeping Soontir and other aces at range 3 or in K-wing blind spots renders them immune to bombs.

15 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You have to follow the conversation... :-)

It's not just bombs alone. All those ships with 360 arcs and/or 4-5-6 dices attacks annihilate our aces. We rely on positioning and agility and both are almost completely negated. Miranda can also shoot 5 dices plasma trop and homers. How do you expect a 3 hull/3 agi ship to survive that??

We had to rely on super defensive ships to have a chance at winning. We were not even dominating the meta.

Poor Imperials. I'm a rebel players and I don't even have defense (sans Biggs). My regen aces lack action economy, maneuverability and are often twice the price of your aces. 360 arcs are far less effective against focus+evade ships with autothrusters - the most they can do is one damage a turn. Miranda can shoot cool missiles, and a ghost does it automatically. Finally, Whisper and Soontir survived the Fan Han era, so they can do the same now with Rey.

3 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Proton Bombs can whack Soontir without Sabine support...if the right damage cards are drawn.  And Palpy has nothing to say about that.

And it seems to me that the tourney scene is made up of mostly fair weather ex-Imperial traitors.  Is this how you show loyalty?  

If Soontir is hit by proton bombs he has been blocked. Boost + barrel roll will, in any position inside a bomb's radius, get him out of there.

"Mostly"no. But there are a lot of salty ex-imperials out there, that's for sure. They still have a batter mood than Rebel fans who are gradually let down by each wave.

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1 hour ago, Astech said:

He isn't, but your original argument was that Palp didn't work anymore, and I stated that triple aces are a viable alternative. Even without Palp, keeping Soontir and other aces at range 3 or in K-wing blind spots renders them immune to bombs.

Actually, that wasn't my argument at all.    I've not used Palp in quite some time because I didn't find him that interesting.   I actually think he is more interesting now, but I think it's also curious that every other nerf (well, maybe not Zuck) is showing up except him at system opens in final cuts.

But have you tried to fly aces against three K wings loaded with bombs?   They don't have as many blind spots as you think (especially if you want to shoot) and double 3 banks can cover that R3 distance.   Can it be done?  Sure.  I think the poster you were going back and forth with was simply pointing out it's incredibly challenging and the burden of execution is on the Ace player far and away since a simple slip up can easily mean the game is over -- and that's already often the case with such a list.

   There's a reason that people have turned to fortressing against the triple K list (and it's not just lists with aces).

Edited by AlexW

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2 hours ago, Astech said:

He isn't, but your original argument was that Palp didn't work anymore, and I stated that triple aces are a viable alternative. Even without Palp, keeping Soontir and other aces at range 3 or in K-wing blind spots renders them immune to bombs.

If Soontir is hit by proton bombs he has been blocked. Boost + barrel roll will, in any position inside a bomb's radius, get him out of there.

"Mostly"no. But there are a lot of salty ex-imperials out there, that's for sure. They still have a batter mood than Rebel fans who are gradually let down by each wave.

Ok now i think you might not really know what you are talking about. There was an illustrated guide showing how k-wings can bomb you from so many different position. I'm trying to find it, if someone can help me. I think it would help make him understand. With slam the range of options for kwings to get you with a bombs is astonishing. Clusters are mines, not bombs. You cant barrel roll out of their way (well unless you have BB8 :-)  It's also relatively easy for a k-wing to place the mines in a way that will make you hit more than one when you execute your maneuver.

Also are you forgetting the TLT? Staying at range 3 of that turret is probably not the best idea. Especially when the ship you are trying to bring down can use it to regen...

 

46 minutes ago, AlexW said:

But have you tried to fly aces against three K wings loaded with bombs?   They don't have as many blind spots as you think (especially if you want to shoot) and double 3 banks can cover that R3 distance.   Can it be done?  Sure.  I think the poster you were going back and forth with was simply pointing out it's incredibly challenging and the burden of execution is on the Ace player far and away since a simple slip up can easily mean the game is over -- and that's already often the case with such a list.

   There's a reason that people have turned to fortressing against the triple K list (and it's not just lists with aces).

Tks!

Edited by Thormind

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1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Ok now i think you might not really know what you are talking about. There was an illustrated guide showing how k-wings can bomb you from so many different position. I'm trying to find it, if someone can help me. I think it would help make him understand. With slam the range of options for kwings to get you with a bombs is astonishing. Clusters are mines, not bombs. You cant barrel roll out of their way (well unless you have BB8 :-)  It's also relatively easy for a k-wing to place the mines in a way that will make you hit more than one when you execute your maneuver.

Also are you forgetting the TLT? Staying at range 3 of that turret is probably not the best idea. Especially when the ship you are trying to bring down can use it to regen...

 

Tks!

K-Wing%20Connor.png

 

 

Edited by bmf

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3 hours ago, Astech said:

He isn't, but your original argument was that Palp didn't work anymore, and I stated that triple aces are a viable alternative. Even without Palp, keeping Soontir and other aces at range 3 or in K-wing blind spots renders them immune to bombs.

I don't even know where to start. Either you've never played aces against K-Wings, or you're off your meds. Triple Aces haven't been viable (competitively) in a long while, Palp Aces was the ONLY Aces list to see play at higher levels- at least until the FAQ, where they completely disappeared. K-Wings and they're insane load-outs completely pushed Aces out of the meta- 6 points of bombs can instantly wipe a 35 point ace off the table, and so it's not worth the risk. This is why pretty much all Imps are forced into either Triple Defenders or Defender + Deci. Only 3/72 players were Imps in the last 3 Opens at the top 24 level. Before the FAQ they were at least present (though not dominating).

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11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think it's fascinating that people identify so strongly with one of the factions. Personally I like all and I play all.

That also means that complaints about a T-65 fix are not rebel-colored, but instead based on my love for the ship itself - and that's faction independent.

I never understood why people stick to a certain faction (unless it's because of money, of course). All factions can give you almost all kinds of lists.

This time the whole aces + support ship got hit hard. When Palp (before the nerf) Aces became obsolete and got replaced by Manaroo Aces, I just switched, but they killed that list too. 

Now if they would hand over unguided rockets to my A-Wings, I actually might start buying **** from them again, but right now I am not really motivated to keep playing, because they patched my prefered archetypes out of the game. The meta did not just change and make those lists unappealing to fly, but they down right destroyed the fundamentals those lists stood on. Palps chance to be useful is cut by more than half and he was based on the meta already problematic choice and Manaroo works still funny enough in the problem list of Paratani, just not anymore in all the other less powerful, but more fun lists.

 

So in other words, rebel aces are only flown as regenerators, I don't like that playstyle, and scum and imp aces ain't got hit hard. I would totally love to fly A-Wings, but I would need those unguided rockets for that at least. Two Dice attacks are still not cutting it for aces. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Perhaps my doubt over this whole 'nerf' thing is because I only started flying Imps this year after Regionals.  Before then, Rebs had been my thing.

I'm really enjoying the different dynamic 3 Imp Aces can bring; having lots of fun with a Vader, Inq. & OL list at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Perhaps my doubt over this whole 'nerf' thing is because I only started flying Imps this year after Regionals.  Before then, Rebs had been my thing.

I'm really enjoying the different dynamic 3 Imp Aces can bring; having lots of fun with a Vader, Inq. & OL list at the moment.

You still stated that "palp is not nerfed" when in effect the change gave him a good chance to have no effect whatsoever, costing him more than 50% of his effectiveness in ace lists. 

Example with some math: If you take 3 attacks with 3 dice +TL+Focus on a ship which has focus+evade and 3 green dice, you end up with a 70% chance not not getting hit without Palp already and a 40% chance to keep your evade token on top. With Palp it becomes a basically guaranteed no damage one. The beauty of the old Palpatine was that you could him in that 1/3 of the cases when your tokens were not enough and had this way a very high chance to get no damage at all. Meanwhile new Palpatine is now a worse evade token which you need to spend before you roll. 

You say "just spend him smart" which is ludicrous as you basically just gambling on the roll. It is now just guessing on a 30/70 chance if Palp has an effect at all. It becomes guessing on a 40/60 chance if we assume that saving a evade token is worth it and agi 4 Soontir is the goal of protection. As you can see even when considering just focus avaible it becomes from a 100% effectiveness down to 40%, losing 60% effectiveness in use and that is without considering the offensive bonus you got out of Palp when you there was a turn in which you did not need Palp defensively at all. 

And worst of all? With autothrusters Palp becomes even more worthless, because now you can not turn eyes into evades any more and usually transform that blank into evade via the autothruster anyway. 

Nearly all the benefits made Palpatine great with imperial aces is literally gone. Now even 4 point R2-D2 would be better as support. The only thing that remains is that you can use it on that one ship which failed to arc dodge and this shift the the attention of the support, which is the essence of a support ship, unfortunately is the Palp shuttle at least 29 points. So the usual use case was before already limited to two ships in the first place and in that one odd-ball of imperial assholes 3 ships. 7 Points do buy me two rebel regen bots, stronger support already without the need to bring a 21 point ride along  ;-)

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And being purely reactionary no-brainer was the problem with the old Palp. Now you have to do some fast probability calculation, with the right calculation and opportunity the waste-probability is quite small.

Imperials whining about Palp on the forum here also conveniently forget that the palped resultat is protected,  it cannot be modified away by effects like Zuckuss etc.

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34 minutes ago, Kingsguard said:

How did palp and defenders get nerfed?

Unless you really don't know: don't play games and try to be antagonistic for the sake of it.

Both Palp and x7 were clearly and objectively reduced in their value. There's no need to pretend otherwise. Whether the previous version was overpowered and now they were reduced to an appropriate level is another discussion, but "How did palp and defenders get nerfed?" is a ridiculous question

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3 hours ago, Managarmr said:

And being purely reactionary no-brainer was the problem with the old Palp. Now you have to do some fast probability calculation, with the right calculation and opportunity the waste-probability is quite small.

Imperials whining about Palp on the forum here also conveniently forget that the palped resultat is protected,  it cannot be modified away by effects like Zuckuss etc.

It's so small that hes been completly wiped out of the top 8 of 3 major system opens. It's funny how people ignore that simple fact. Do you really think if the upgrade is still good that top players wouldnt be able to bring him to the top spots again? The investments required to put him in a squad are huge. Its not just his own cost, it's the bad ship you have to use to put him on board as well. He needs to be really good to justify his place in the squad. He isnt anymore.

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5 hours ago, Managarmr said:

And being purely reactionary no-brainer was the problem with the old Palp. Now you have to do some fast probability calculation, with the right calculation and opportunity the waste-probability is quite small.

Imperials whining about Palp on the forum here also conveniently forget that the palped resultat is protected,  it cannot be modified away by effects like Zuckuss etc.

The reactionary nature of Palp is why you took him (and paid 8 points 2 crew to do so). Palp is GONE from competitive play. Not a single list in the top 24 of the post FAQ Opens had Palp in it. Old Palp was the crutch on which Palp Aces and Commonwealth Defenders stood to keep them in competition. New Palp just isn't reliable enough for that. We're not saying he's completely destroyed, but he is FAR less useful than before, bringing Imps down as a whole. Also, you are wrong in that the opportunity to waste him is small- it's actually quite significant. Because you can't react to bad rolls anymore, it's FAR more difficult to do things like keep Stealth Devices up- which was the whole point of Palp Aces- keep SD up as long as possible and keep your aces at AGI 4 as long as you can. Now that's a LOT harder to do, and you have far more chance to choose the wrong roll, lose an SD, and lose one of your  aces.

Old Palp was a powerful card, sure. But he was what kept Palp Aces and Commonwealth flying. Plus he was 8 points 2 crew. New Palp is the same cost for a drastically less reliable dice modifier- and thus we see Palp reliant lists completely get wiped off the map.

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22 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Unless you really don't know: don't play games and try to be antagonistic for the sake of it.

Both Palp and x7 were clearly and objectively reduced in their value. There's no need to pretend otherwise. Whether the previous version was overpowered and now they were reduced to an appropriate level is another discussion, but "How did palp and defenders get nerfed?" is a ridiculous question

Jeeze, touchy. I was just trying to ask a question.

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On 27.3.2017 at 2:51 AM, Thormind said:

yeah but the reason why we said all that is because:

 

and then:

You have to follow the conversation... :-)

It's not just bombs alone. All those ships with 360 arcs and/or 4-5-6 dices attacks annihilate our aces. We rely on positioning and agility and both are almost completely negated. Miranda can also shoot 5 dices plasma trop and homers. How do you expect a 3 hull/3 agi ship to survive that??

We had to rely on super defensive ships to have a chance at winning. We were not even dominating the meta.

 

Edit: hehe, i wasnt fast enough :-)

Miranda was there exactly like this before, and nobody complained. And if you like, you can still do EXACTLY the same thing against these torps with your aces and/or defenders as before if you have Palpy and if you don't

If you can't beat Miranda you are just getting outplayed or you are doing mistakes.

If you take 5-hit Torps you positioned wrong and are not arc-dodging like you should.

On your token-hog Aces, especially the ones with Autothrusters,  TLT is very lucky to get anything through even during multiple turns. 

And the Mines and Bombs? They are made exactly for that and should shut down Aces very hard. And now finally they do, which is a good thing. But even then, you can avoid them by good maneuvering. If you take them to the face constantly, you are, again, getting outplayed and therefore deserve to lose.

That being said. The Miranda you talk about with Homing Missiles, EM, TLT, plus Bombs is easily over 50 points, and as such should indeed be very scary in order to pull her weight. If she could not handily beat a 34-40 point ship or even less in the case of Omega Leader and the Inquisitor, there would be something fundamentally wrong with the game.

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10 hours ago, ForceM said:

Miranda was there exactly like this before, and nobody complained. And if you like, you can still do EXACTLY the same thing against these torps with your aces and/or defenders as before if you have Palpy and if you don't

If you can't beat Miranda you are just getting outplayed or you are doing mistakes.

If you take 5-hit Torps you positioned wrong and are not arc-dodging like you should.

On your token-hog Aces, especially the ones with Autothrusters,  TLT is very lucky to get anything through even during multiple turns. 

And the Mines and Bombs? They are made exactly for that and should shut down Aces very hard. And now finally they do, which is a good thing. But even then, you can avoid them by good maneuvering. If you take them to the face constantly, you are, again, getting outplayed and therefore deserve to lose.

That being said. The Miranda you talk about with Homing Missiles, EM, TLT, plus Bombs is easily over 50 points, and as such should indeed be very scary in order to pull her weight. If she could not handily beat a 34-40 point ship or even less in the case of Omega Leader and the Inquisitor, there would be something fundamentally wrong with the game.

Instead of making things up, look at actual facts. Where do you see those amazing aces in the last 3 open results?? Where are those "still amazing" post faq defenders? Or that Palpy that still does the same thing as he used to? How many TLTs do you have in top positions? How many PWT? How many k-wings? How many Jumpmasters? Have you seen some top players matches of those Open events? Noticed that all those things that would not happen if i was skilled keep happening to the best players regularly as well?

Miranda doesnt need ALL the tools you mentioned to be effective. But even with everything, you're saying that it's normal she's better than a 60 points Decimator?? 50 points still allow her to have 1 or 2 strong partners.

Have you seen that picture? Thats just a corner net. Cluster mines fill up even more space. I wouldnt mind that much if my Punisher was as good or if i had access to an half decent bomber. Noticed in the movies how it's always bombers we see... bombing? :-)

Only thing i think they got correctly with that faq is the title of the article announcing it: "bringing balance to the force". Just as in the movies, the definition of "balance" is when the Dark Side is completely beaten. Only 2 Sith vs thousands of Jedi and the force needs to be balanced :-)

On 3/27/2017 at 0:58 AM, bmf said:

K-Wing%20Connor.png

 

 

 

Edited by Thormind

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11 hours ago, Thormind said:

Instead of making things up, look at actual facts. Where do you see those amazing aces in the last 3 open results?? Where are those "still amazing" post faq defenders? Or that Palpy that still does the same thing as he used to? How many TLTs do you have in top positions? How many PWT? How many k-wings? How many Jumpmasters? Have you seen some top players matches of those Open events? Noticed that all those things that would not happen if i was skilled keep happening to the best players regularly as well?

Miranda doesnt need ALL the tools you mentioned to be effective. But even with everything, you're saying that it's normal she's better than a 60 points Decimator?? 50 points still allow her to have 1 or 2 strong partners.

Have you seen that picture? Thats just a corner net. Cluster mines fill up even more space. I wouldnt mind that much if my Punisher was as good or if i had access to an half decent bomber. Noticed in the movies how it's always bombers we see... bombing? :-)

Only thing i think they got correctly with that faq is the title of the article announcing it: "bringing balance to the force". Just as in the movies, the definition of "balance" is when the Dark Side is completely beaten. Only 2 Sith vs thousands of Jedi and the force needs to be balanced :-)

 

The FAQ is official for 12 days. Not even 2 Weeks. 3 Tournaments.

This is not even a sample size that is worth discussing in reality.

Imperial Players had no time to adapt, no time to even look for alternatives to Palpy, and it's not even said that the nerf to Palpy is even significant enough to get him away from the top tables.

As i see it, imperial players were insecure about it, and preferred to not run any risks. So nobody played him. It is however premature to write him off.

Back to Miranda. You talk about a Homing missile shooting, Bomb laying Miranda with EM, Sabine and Advanced SLAM plus TLT.

So this build here. Not my invention. Just what was said here and complained about:

Miranda Doni (29)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Extra Munitions (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Sabine Wren (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Conner Net (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Total: 54

That is 54 points. Or A full imp ace and most of Omega leader.

Is this better than a  60 points Decimator? It really depends on how you build the Deci But you can run for example a Kylo version that puts Miranda in a bag for 60 points basically. The statement that she is plain better is just not true.

The best thing is however is this ridiculous template where you try and show how overpowered she is with a bomb.

So she has to pick a first maneuver and therefore a speed for SLAM first, which limits her already. So she can, unlike this tries to suggest not just put it into all these locations by just reacting to your maneuver. Lets also note that in every case where she SLAMs, she can't shoot, so no further damage except the Bomb and no regen that turn.

At speed 1 she has 4 positions to drop the bomb.

At speed 2 there are 6.

At speed 3 there are 4.

So, in short. She still very much needs to outguess you if she wants to bomb you. She can adjust for the price of no further actions or shots, but it's still the maneuvering game she plays and you can outfly her.

And in that case, you take 2 damage (with Sabine) with the Conner net... so she needs to do it again no matter what ship you fly. If She manages to do that, under fire and accepting the fact that your other ships could focus her down during that time, well... you probably deserve to lose!

It is also noteworthy that Eamon Azzameen and Deathrain have at least/nearly as many possible Bomb positions as Miranda. Snd you don't make a fuss about them.

Again. Miranda is a very good ship and a top choice in her price and weight class. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Rebels need to have, and do have these choices, just as the other 2 Factions

Empire has arguably more of these top (ace) choices to choose from. Omega leader, Inquisitor, Ryad, Vessery, Soontir, RAC and so on... They are all top choices in their respective roles, and this is totally fine that way. Scum of course also have their fair share.

So why this whining, i don't get this. You are just proving my point by now. That imperials are always whining and that the sky is always falling unless they are totally steamrolling the meta. And that they are above all envious to everything Rebels have that makes them distinct and good! Ignoring their own strenghts and that they just have to use different tools than Rebels to win.

This really stays mysterious behaviour to me...

Edited by ForceM

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Just to prove my point...

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (46)
Trick Shot (0)
Kylo Ren (3)
Mercenary Copilot (2)
Rebel Captive (3)

Total: 54

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This here should really be a nightmare for Miranda to deal with for the same 54 points. Make her not shoot/regen twice more, set her PS to 0 and then put her in a bag. If she shoots you, she gets stressed and is severely limited in her movement if she wants to bomb.

For 60 you could have EU and switch the merc for Ysanne maybe. Dauntless Title is also an option, or a better EPT. But even at 54, it's quite potent, and not only against Miranda at that!

Edited by ForceM

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Guys you need to seriously take a deep breath and then look at the regionals results. Many fun imperial builds in the top 8. Deathfire. Quickdraw. Strikers. Vessery... Imperials are far from gone.

Whoever is doubting that we too still got some shiny toys I urge to play one of the following:

deathfire w EM Homings, connors or clusters and LRS or chips (i prefer connors)

Quickdraw with lwf, draw their fire, baffle

Tomax bren with homings, guidance chips, EM, thermals and crack shot (take that biggs and scouts!)

TIE/D vessery with tractor (eat ur own bombs, mr kwing)

TIE/D rexler with ion and expertise.

Strikers (both vi dutchess as well as countdown are very good vs fenn rau)

Edited by MaxPower

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8 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Guys you need to seriously take a deep breath and then look at the regionals results. Many fun imperial builds in the top 8. Deathfire. Quickdraw. Strikers. Vessery... Imperials are far from gone.

Didn't regionals end on Feb. 25th? As in, before the FAQ dropped?

35 minutes ago, ForceM said:

So why this whining, i don't get this. You are just proving my point by now. That imperials are always whining and that the sky is always falling unless they are totally steamrolling the meta. And that they are above all envious to everything Rebels have that makes them distinct and good! Ignoring their own strenghts and that they just have to use different tools than Rebels to win.

This really stays mysterious behaviour to me...

We get it, Force, you hate Imperial players. You seem perfectly happy that Imps are completely gone from competitive play represented by HUNDREDS OF GAMES AND PLAYERS (not a small sample size) in the last 3 opens. You hate us, hate our presence in the game, and are glad we're gone from competitive. Awesome. Thanks for your input.

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3 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

What does the faq have to do with the diverse imperial ships I mentioned?

Umm..are you even reading this thread? Imps disappeared from the 3 Tournament Opens (Naboo, Tatooine, and Hoth) since the FAQ went live. In those opens only 3 Imperial players made the top 24. By 3 Opens, that's out of 72 players (starting from hundreds of players, and hundreds of games). So post FAQ, there were 3/72 Imps represented at Opens since the FAQ. None of those 'diverse' ships you mentioned went anywhere near the top tables, with exception of Quickdraw.

Naboo: No Imps in top 24. Tatooine: Two Triple Defenders in top 24. Hoth: One Vessery/Quickdraw/Omega Leader.

This is what we're discussing, welcome to the party.

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Dude, stop patronizing me. All I'm addressing is that some ships that WERE good are unchanged by the faqs and made it witout palp etc. You take a data sample of 3 tourneys and claim sky is falling. I also proposed some lesser seen ships and went the extra mile to take into account how some of these can be used against meta ships. But whatever, I dont think you wanna see other points than your own.

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4 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Dude, stop patronizing me. All I'm addressing is that some ships that WERE good are unchanged by the faqs and made it witout palp etc. You take a data sample of 3 tourneys and claim sky is falling. I also proposed some lesser seen ships and went the extra mile to take into account how some of these can be used against meta ships. But whatever, I dont think you wanna see other points than your own.

Great suggestions! As soon as those ships dominate a system open and propel Imps back into competition, let us know!

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