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JK5M nerfs - analysis (no im not whining here )

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

That would be a solid step towards fixing it, sure.  But I very much doubt they will ever errata a dial.  Too easy to cheat and use the original to catch an unsuspecting opponent unaware.

For casual play? Sure, good job you just cheated in a friendly game with your friends!

On a tournament... that's harder to pull off since tournament players do tead the FAQs and Erratas most of the time.

Edited by ForceM
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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

That would be a solid step towards fixing it, sure.  But I very much doubt they will ever errata a dial.  Too easy to cheat and use the original to catch an unsuspecting opponent unaware.

My initial thought was that most players (particularly those who are least semi-competetive) are reasonably well informed enough that this shouldn't be a problem.

Then I remember that at the weekend I played in a 40 man tournament and I had to explain a) what Kanan Jarrus crew does and b) how that interacts with the falcon sloop title to my opponent on table 3 in round 5.

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4 minutes ago, asters89 said:

My initial thought was that most players (particularly those who are least semi-competetive) are reasonably well informed enough that this shouldn't be a problem.

Then I remember that at the weekend I played in a 40 man tournament and I had to explain a) what Kanan Jarrus crew does and b) how that interacts with the falcon sloop title to my opponent on table 3 in round 5.

Similarly, I've had to explain HotCoP and Omega Leader a lot even at relatively high level tournaments.  Not everyone at big tournaments has the encylopaedic obsession that I have with knowing all the rules, even for ships and upgrades I never use.

I can understand the wariness over nerfing a dial (upgrading one is pretty easy, you use a title card or ship-specific upgrade as I hope they might for the StarViper) but nerfing one relies on the players to use the nerfed version honestly.  And most will.  But some won't and it'll be difficult to tell when they're not.

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On 20.3.2017 at 0:08 PM, Vitalis said:

So it struck me yesterday: JM5k has been nerfed over  and over and over again..

It was @VanderLegion who realised that you are actually wrong. It's not that JM5k was nerfed over and over and over again, but three different builds got nerfed.

  1.  R4 slightly nerfed uboats, but was more a timing change and was not really a nerf
  2. Deadeye was a torpedo boat nerf
  3. Manaroo was a Dengaroo/Paratani nerf

Note that different builds were nerfed, so the notion that "JM5k has been nerfed over  and over and over again.. " is simply wrong.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

It was @VanderLegion who realised that you are actually wrong. It's not that JM5k was nerfed over and over and over again, but three different builds got nerfed.

  1.  R4 slightly nerfed uboats, but was more a timing change and was not really a nerf
  2. Deadeye was a torpedo boat nerf
  3. Manaroo was a Dengaroo/Paratani nerf

Note that different builds were nerfed, so the notion that "JM5k has been nerfed over  and over and over again.. " is simply wrong.

Yes and no.  What's true is that numerous mechanics, when applied to the basic Jumpmaster chassis, have proven to be problematic.  

His question being: how many other mechanics are going to be applied to the Jumpmaster chassis and get nerfed, when really they should be nerfing the chassis that underlying it is so strong that any otherwise 'strong but fair' mechanic becomes a problem?

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I mean, yeah, Mindlink is the next big complaint; Mindlink Torpscouts are super-efficient and you can still fit three of them in a list.  Heck, even fitting one of them in a list is a great use of points, I've replaced the Manaroo I used to have in my Mana Fenn Kavil with a Torp Scout and if anything it's better now, if I fly it right.

The Jumpmaster chassis itself is the issue.

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Pretty much.

I think the next big scary Scum thing is probably going to end up being two-ship alpha strike lists with Bossk, Ketsu, Assaj, Dengar in some combination.  So mostly not actually J5ks.

Or Mindlink Scyks, please don't wreck my Mindlink Scyks, they're not super OP.

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41 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Pretty much.

I think the next big scary Scum thing is probably going to end up being two-ship alpha strike lists with Bossk, Ketsu, Assaj, Dengar in some combination.  So mostly not actually J5ks.

Or Mindlink Scyks, please don't wreck my Mindlink Scyks, they're not super OP.

Genesis has all the clue to be an Inquisitor/OmegaLeader -like for scum. With Mangler+VI is around 26 points

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4 hours ago, asters89 said:

My initial thought was that most players (particularly those who are least semi-competetive) are reasonably well informed enough that this shouldn't be a problem.

Then I remember that at the weekend I played in a 40 man tournament and I had to explain a) what Kanan Jarrus crew does and b) how that interacts with the falcon sloop title to my opponent on table 3 in round 5.

I was a little taken aback at the Toronto Regionals where I hit a ship that had Stealth Device with my TIE/D Tractor Beam, and he didn't think that the Stealth Device would get removed because he hadn't suffered any damage.

It's not like this guy wasn't a top tier competitive player either, he was the highest ranking Imperial player at the Naboo Open this weekend. 

Some of these things we'd think were obvious in the rules aren't necessarily that obvious.

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1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

His question being: how many other mechanics are going to be applied to the Jumpmaster chassis and get nerfed, when really they should be nerfing the chassis that underlying it is so strong that any otherwise 'strong but fair' mechanic becomes a problem?

I thought he was specifically ranting against the EPT?

Of course the dial and cost, and maybe even some base stats, could be adjusted to solve the problem. Especially the dial seems more apparent than the EPT on Manaroo.

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16 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

If Mindlink didn't work whilst you were stressed it would be a: awful and b: a huge amount less interesting to fly.  Now, no-one can do red moves basically ever because it kills the entire squad's EPT for a round or more.  The most interesting way to fly a big Mindlink squad once you get into the furball is to have a ship K turn across the fight then the rest do greens to give it its action.  If that doesn't work you basically kill the card entirely.

My proposed solution would be thus: to Mindlink, append 'you cannot be assigned more than one focus token or more than one stress token.'

Instantly kills the giant focus stack issue without harming the interesting combat manouevring, and compensates by making the list un-double-stress-able, but stress control still significantly impinges it.  Or if you must, limit it to two stress tokens instead.

But I'd still hold that Manaroo was what made Mindlink really problematic, not Mindlink itself.  Take Mindlink away and you kill a lot of Scum's utility.

And either way, I doubt they'll make any precipitate changes to it without giving it a few months to bed the most recent FAQs in and see if that sorted things out.

So, your solution is to buff it?

Making it so that you can only ever have 1 Stress is a pretty massive buff against stresshogs

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16 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't know if FFG will dare go out for another fix so quickly.

I still like the 'red pen' fix.  Get the Jumpmaster dial, get a red pen, colour in the right turns on the dial - ship fixed!

Out of all the issues I have seen with Jumpmaster, my biggest issue is the dial. The TIE fighter doesn't even have green 1 hard turns.  A large base ship should not be able to put manuver a TIE fighter.  Even in the movies (ESB and TFA) the Falcon couldn't shake TIE fighters.  Only using other obstacles was the Falcon able to survive.  

 

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7 hours ago, Talamare said:

So, your solution is to buff it?

Making it so that you can only ever have 1 Stress is a pretty massive buff against stresshogs

And making it so you can't have more than one focus is a HUGE penalty to its current use, whereas not being able to be double stressed doesn't make a lot of difference to its current use, since unless you double stress the entire squad, it's vanishingly rare that one of the single stressed ships won't be able t do a green and get focus to everyone.

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