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Vitalis

JK5M nerfs - analysis (no im not whining here )

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28 minutes ago, Cerve said:


It's because Manaroo's ability, c'mon..

I'm aware of that. But if the JM5K as a whole had been fixed, that would include Manaroo.

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

I'm aware of that. But if the JM5K as a whole had been fixed, that would include Manaroo.

That's true. But...I don't think that they will fix the JM5K soon. I mean, yes both Naboo and Tatooine shows a lot of 3U but there's 2 things to consider of:

1) Heavy fix two weeks before tournaments. That's automatically create a run for the SAFEST and competitive build. A lot of training is messed up, a lot of player had to change their builds just 2 weeks before of it. And 3U was the best choice thanks to his shiny past.

2) New 3U is a...nerfed-kinda past 3U. Now, you physically can't get a triple open volley. In fact, in high levels you will struggle to just get 2 nice torp shoots as a first engange. Those ships works with R4, that means auto TL for the SECOND engage. That's an huge change. This throw the list from "broken" to "competitive", which is fine. 

 

 

So, in light of that I will waiting before nerf Jumpmaster right now. We need to see if the meta will change after some solid playtesting (meaning 1-2 months almost) or not. 

 

Edited by Cerve
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4 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Same. Stuck Zuckuss on Palob with Wired and TLT. You?

Exacly the same - for just 3 points more then normal TLT Ywing its performance was off the charts - that range 2 sweetspot was awesome.

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6 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Exacly the same - for just 3 points more then normal TLT Ywing its performance was off the charts - that range 2 sweetspot was awesome.

It was a lot of fun. I still think it'll work fine post nerf, but sadly not as well as it once did.

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5 hours ago, Pimpbacca said:

I don't want to say I told you so, but...

 

A trip down memory lane there! Draco, Paragoomba and Fickle in the first replies!

 

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Jmk was just really badly created.  Which is too bad, cuz it could have been good balanced fun, but its just rotten stink from all the bad feelings. 

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1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

It was a lot of fun. I still think it'll work fine post nerf, but sadly not as well as it once did.

Nah it wont :/ Zuckuss on HWK now is basically one use. For 1 point thou it can be that one crucial use when you really need to finish a ship.  Hard to  replace him - maybe Dengar , maybe and just big maybe 4lom, maybe hotshot. Dunno.

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Why is the performance 'off the bat'?

I thought I knew what that meant but now I don't know any more.

NERF synonyms!

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19 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Nah it wont :/ Zuckuss on HWK now is basically one use. For 1 point thou it can be that one crucial use when you really need to finish a ship.  Hard to  replace him - maybe Dengar , maybe and just big maybe 4lom, maybe hotshot. Dunno.

Yeah, it's one use, but that might be enough for one point. Dengar is always a solid choice, though more expensive. Never been a fan of 4Lom personally, but he might work out. Hotshot Co-pilot is an interesting thought.

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You just figured out it has been nerfed multiple times? And in other news Imperials are the bad guys.:P

Now for someone who calls this thread an non-rant analysis there sure is a lot of subjective analytics in with words such as "unnecessary" and "disappointed" and other things that are clearly stating your opinion and not looking at it in a different way. Now sure every thesis has a counter thesis and this isn't exactly a board of academic posts, but for what you call "unnecessary and disappointing" there is going to be someone here who will call it "essential and welcoming".

Now my take on it. For the most part I don't like the nerfs and changes because U-boats brought one aspect of the game that was largely ignored and that was the alpha strike. However in order for an alpha strike to be good it has to win early in the game and that could be frustrating to other players and sometimes provide for rather bland game play.

  1. Now the first nerf was the timing chart that literally broke the R4 Agromech Deadeye combo in which a focus token could be spent for a target lock. Now some people claim that this was always the case which I argue as the R4 Agromech was designed to work with blaster turret. Many people try to counter argue due to certain contradictions between FFG news articles and OP tournament rulings that they are to be dismissed. But I don't take it as such because for the longest time R4 Agromech worked with blaster turret the same way it used out work with deadeye. It was just only one pilot could take the combo and that was too much plus a pilot skill that was too high as deadeye works better with lower pilot skill.  Thus the attempt to save blaster turret was found in a better spot, although later that would be taken out and blaster turret will be no more.
  2. Deadeye errata, this isn't the first time FFG used an errata for a balance adjustment. Tactician was errata to given the word restricted to prevent the abuse from the 180 arc and 3x<crew> slot of YV-666. Sure the VT-49 Decimator had a 3x<crew> slot as well but the firing arc was not as effective as the 180 aux which could expand the area of tactician effectiveness. However the timing chart of the previous nerf did little to stop U-boats as R4-Agromech was replaced with R4 Overclocked which had less offensive firepwoer modification and started to add in stress penalties for using. This also brought in Dengaroo with the token passing and mindlink allowing for multiple focus tokens combined with Dengar's additional attacks. However once the Deadeye errata was in JM5K as torpedo boats were no more and the torpedo/missile munitions meta once again vanished into obscurity.
  3. However JM5K were not out of the picture yet. True that they didn't have the alpha strike capability any more, sure they can still carry torpedoes but there were not as effective nor were they as easy to use. Deadeye at a low pilot skill made munitions easier to use than ever, which is ironic since most double munitions carriers lack EPTs save for the B-wing and high pilot skill TIE-Bombers and a single Scum Y-wing which was also at a high pilot skill. The Patrinni list came out with Manaroo being the centerpiece as a support gunship equal to no other than Palp Shuttle. Ironically both got nerfed in the same FAQ bringing down the era of super support ships and more into a meta of combat ships of the line which can operate independently of other ship combos.

 

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5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Now my take on it. For the most part I don't like the nerfs and changes because U-boats brought one aspect of the game that was largely ignored and that was the alpha strike. However in order for an alpha strike to be good it has to win early in the game and that could be frustrating to other players and sometimes provide for rather bland game play.

The thing with Jumpmaster and Alpha strike isn't just that they have an alpha strike. In a lot of other games (specifically CCG and the like), agro decks and face hunters would be really good but they also burn themselves out very quickly. They NEEDED to win in the first dozen turns or they exhaust themselves. They also, when things are balanced right, were countered well by control.

Jumpmasters though are not JUST alpha strike. They have probably the strongest dial in the game, they have a slew of good upgrade slots, they have a native large ship barrel roll, they are very economically priced AND have a sizable amount of hull.  

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2 minutes ago, Unremarkable Cardboard Box said:

The thing with Jumpmaster and Alpha strike isn't just that they have an alpha strike. In a lot of other games (specifically CCG and the like), agro decks and face hunters would be really good but they also burn themselves out very quickly. They NEEDED to win in the first dozen turns or they exhaust themselves. They also, when things are balanced right, were countered well by control.

Jumpmasters though are not JUST alpha strike. They have probably the strongest dial in the game, they have a slew of good upgrade slots, they have a native large ship barrel roll, they are very economically priced AND have a sizable amount of hull.  

Yeah I agreed, The JM5K had a lot of other good things that made it a tournament staple up until the Mantis Nerf, but no one could do the Alpha Strike better than the JM5K when they first came out. In Arc you were getting pummeled and out of arc, you weren't safe either.

It is a shame that it shows exactly how FFG doesnt' quite understand what made torpedoes and missiles bad in the first place. The JM5K alpha almost seems like an accident that FFG wanted to contain. If there was a way to take the old U-boat combos and put them on say TIE Punishers, would the have reached the same level of power that U-boats did, and NO, Homming missiles are not the same power as Deadeye, focus token into TL-agromech combo. You can still bait out a TL action with a higher pilot skill and dodge out of it once you get tagged.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

You just figured out it has been nerfed multiple times? And in other news Imperials are the bad guys.:P

Now for someone who calls this thread an non-rant analysis there sure is a lot of subjective analytics in with words such as "unnecessary" and "disappointed" and other things that are clearly stating your opinion and not looking at it in a different way. Now sure every thesis has a counter thesis and this isn't exactly a board of academic posts, but for what you call "unnecessary and disappointing" there is going to be someone here who will call it "essential and welcoming".

 

Well the point here was not to rant about "ooo you killed the jumpmasters" or "uuuu too op need more nerfs" - i wanted to point out that they did a lot of collateral damage on the way to bringing them back in line where there is really simple fix that did nothing bad to the rest of the game. Sure there were some of my personal opinions, but i wanted to use them just to reinforce my points.

Edited by Vitalis

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I predict the fix is ...

Attanni Mindlink: Limit 2 per squad.

I bet...

"If you're not stressed, when another friendly ship with Attani Mindlink is assigned a Focus or Stress Token. You must also be assigned the same type of token if you do not already have one."

Edited by Talamare
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The J5K has 9 HP with 2 agility. The outrider has 10 HP with 2 Agility for 5 points more. Add to that the EPT and the white sloop, and 2 torp slots and you know why the ship is OP. Just. Too. Cheap.

If it had 1 agility, or less HP you could alpha it reliably.( It is pretty often that you can't kill a J5k even if you get the drop on it in the opening engagement, so it still gets its torps off.)

Without EPT, no Deadeye/Attani.

Without another torp slot, mo EM.

Without white sloop, no easy follow-up torps.

There would be many ways to bring the J5k in line, they just need to choose one.

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9 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I predict the fix is ...

Attanni Mindlink: Limit 2 per squad.

That would be a terrible fix.  The most interesting and well-balanced Mindlink squads are the ones with 4+ ships.

 

14 minutes ago, Talamare said:

I bet...

"If you're not stressed, when another friendly ship with Attani Mindlink is assigned a Focus or Stress Token. You must also be assigned the same type of token if you do not already have one."

So would that.

If Mindlink didn't work whilst you were stressed it would be a: awful and b: a huge amount less interesting to fly.  Now, no-one can do red moves basically ever because it kills the entire squad's EPT for a round or more.  The most interesting way to fly a big Mindlink squad once you get into the furball is to have a ship K turn across the fight then the rest do greens to give it its action.  If that doesn't work you basically kill the card entirely.

My proposed solution would be thus: to Mindlink, append 'you cannot be assigned more than one focus token or more than one stress token.'

Instantly kills the giant focus stack issue without harming the interesting combat manouevring, and compensates by making the list un-double-stress-able, but stress control still significantly impinges it.  Or if you must, limit it to two stress tokens instead.

But I'd still hold that Manaroo was what made Mindlink really problematic, not Mindlink itself.  Take Mindlink away and you kill a lot of Scum's utility.

And either way, I doubt they'll make any precipitate changes to it without giving it a few months to bed the most recent FAQs in and see if that sorted things out.

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11 minutes ago, ForceM said:

The J5K has 9 HP with 2 agility. The outrider has 10 HP with 2 Agility for 5 points more. Add to that the EPT and the white sloop, and 2 torp slots and you know why the ship is OP. Just. Too. Cheap.

If it had 1 agility, or less HP you could alpha it reliably.( It is pretty often that you can't kill a J5k even if you get the drop on it in the opening engagement, so it still gets its torps off.)

Without EPT, no Deadeye/Attani.

Without another torp slot, mo EM.

Without white sloop, no easy follow-up torps.

There would be many ways to bring the J5k in line, they just need to choose one.

Well yes if you compare it to a ship that's total trash, of course it's way over the top.

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

Well yes if you compare it to a ship that's total trash, of course it's way over the top.

So how about comparing it to the Resistance Sympathiser or Patrol Leader which are probably the two most balanced large base PWTs.  A Scout with P1 title is 37 points.  Patrol Leader is 40.  Resistance Sympathiser is 38.

Dials: JM5k wins by a MILE.  Has green turns, has white sloop, which the Sympathiser has to pay 3 or 4 points and a crew slot to sort of approximate.  Decis isn't even really in contention.

Upgrades: Scout is the only one with an EPT.  Sympathiser has 2 crew, scout has one and trashmech, which is a wash.  Deci has 3 crew which is better than either.  Scout has two torps.  Sympathiser has one missile, which is worse.  Deci has bomb and torp which is probably a wash, not that people use the bomb that often.  Scout has native illicit, which Sympathiser has to pay for in not being able to use 4-cost mods.  Upgrade slots are a wash by and large except that EPT which sticks out a mile as being better than both.

PS: Same, wash.

Actions: Scout is the only one with Barrel Roll, otherwise identical unless the Sympathiser takes the old Falcon title.

HP and AGI: 2/9, 1/13, 0/16.  A wash in theory, but the Deci is a crit magnet and can't use its actions to boost its defence at all, so the deci loses here.

And the Scout is a point CHEAPER than the Sympathiser and THREE cheaper than the Deci.  That's crazy.

Comparing the Scout and the WSF is a legitimate comparison too - but what it shows is that the scout is significantly undercosted AND the WSF is significantly overcosted.  Ditto the ORS.

E: attaching the EPT to the title could be an interesting way to fix it - make it only possible to equip EPTs to a single JM5K of the list builder's choice.

Edited by thespaceinvader
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9 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I predict the fix is ...

Attanni Mindlink: Limit 2 per squad.

Jumps would just start flying with crack shot, and that would not be less scary AT ALL.

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1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I don't know if FFG will dare go out for another fix so quickly.

I still like the 'red pen' fix.  Get the Jumpmaster dial, get a red pen, colour in the right turns on the dial - ship fixed!

That would be a solid step towards fixing it, sure.  But I very much doubt they will ever errata a dial.  Too easy to cheat and use the original to catch an unsuspecting opponent unaware.

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The other solution that I think would still be potentially good would be to make the Scout unique.  That would dramatically reduce the issue of how efficient they are when you bring multiple of them.

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2 hours ago, Panzeh said:

Well yes if you compare it to a ship that's total trash, of course it's way over the top.

Compare it to any ship you want. The result is the same. Either it's too cheap or the others are all "total trash".

Is that a reason to make this ship the new benchmark? I think not!

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