What are the BEST list, and WHY?

[Asturonethorius 5]

Ok I realize that this can potentially open a can of worms, a opinionated, heated debate.

I realize that depends on how define BEST. And I know some will say the BEST is what is found fun, that wins.

So when I say BEST, I mean those list that have the BEST CONSISTENT record, over a LARGE sample size, against the BEST competition.

Also I mean GAME MECHANICALLY, WHY in LOGICAL, FACTUAL, GAME MECHANICAL THEORY, to go along with, combined with the BEST consistent record, large sample size, best competition.

This, that is important, because if go by just win record, THATS FLAWED RESULTS ORIENTED THINKING BASED ON POSSIBLE LUCK.

When someone wins a lot, against good competition, it could in theory be because maybe they got incredibly lucky.

Thats why its important to look at why a list is winning.

The point of this is not to net list, but to see WHY, WHAT makes a good list, so that can learn to make SEMI DERIVATIVE DERIVED list, whether similar, semi different, different, semi outside the box, etc, based on WHY, WHAT makes the BEST list game mechanically, logically, factually, record, etc.

 

Making the BEST list possible based on my definition, combined with having fun, winning a lot, winning with grace, losing with grace, learning to fly the list the BEST, is what makes the BEST list, BEST player, BEST experience.

So with all that said(sorry for length)

What are the BEST list and WHY, HOW, WHAT makes them the BEST list?

[Asturonethorius 5]

Example of how I would like the BEST list posted.

BEST List, insert name here

 

List Summary Explanation on Why Best

Win, loss record (should be something like 100 wins, 5 to 9 losses, against BEST, semi Best competition, as a rough example, meaning it not have to be just like example

Ship name: Explanation of why Ship is good with other ships in list

Upgrades on Ship: Explanation on why upgrades

Upgrade 1: Explanation

Upgrade 2: Explanation

Ship name: Explanation

Upgrades on Ship summary explanation on why upgrades

Upgrade 1: explanation

Upgrade 2: explanation

Ship name: Explanation

Why upgrades explanation, summary

Upgrade 1: explanation

Upgrade 2: explanation

How to FLY: explanation

Why a player would like

Why a player might not like

List summary

Thats just a example. Doesnt have to follow example exactly, but is a rough guideline of how to post a BEST list

 

[Asturonethorius 5]

If dont think a list that somebody posted is a BEST list.

Please dont say something like that list is silly, stupid, bad, etc.

Rather,instead,please say something like:

The list name posted by so and so, I dont think its the best, or not the best, because x,y,z factual, logical, reasons, record not good, had bad competition, etc

[Asturonethorius 5]

Also can, could say, explain how would make a BEST list even better.

Remember the goal is not to have a debate about which, what list is the BEST, where thats all that done.

A little tiny bit of that is, would be unescapable, ok. But the point is to post the BEST list, explain why best, and to TEACH, LEARN from this on HOW to build the BEST list.

At least thats my interest. I want to learn how to build the BEST list, or at least the BEST list that I can possibly make without net listing, without copying others list exactly, etc.

[Greebwahn 925]

There's no such thing as a best list. Generally speaking, the better lists minimize the uncertainty of dice rolls, but they are still reliant on those rolls. Not to mention, the list itself is not what wins - flying is. Anything can beat anything if it is flown well enough. Additionally, even common meta lists have so many variations, personal preferences that people bring to the table, that saying "this is a BEST list" is going to be challenged constantly. The challenge for a player is not finding the best list, but rather, finding their list, a list that they know, understand, and feel skillful flying, because that will win more games then just a brainstormed squad.

[Phanto Fiend 26]

1 hour ago, Greebwahn said:

There's no such thing as a best list. Generally speaking, the better lists minimize the uncertainty of dice rolls, but they are still reliant on those rolls. Not to mention, the list itself is not what wins - flying is. Anything can beat anything if it is flown well enough. Additionally, even common meta lists have so many variations, personal preferences that people bring to the table, that saying "this is a BEST list" is going to be challenged constantly. The challenge for a player is not finding the best list, but rather, finding their list, a list that they know, understand, and feel skillful flying, because that will win more games then just a brainstormed squad.

This ^^

[Asturonethorius 5]

Like I said in my comments above, there are GAME MECHANICALLY, BEST, BETTER BUILDS, GAME MECHANICALLY, AND CONSISTENT WIN LOSS RECORD VS THE OTHER TOP LIST.

There is a reason why in various games whether Rpg, CCG, board games, miniatures, MTG, etc, their are TIER 1, TOP, BEST TIER, WORLD CHAMPION, etc, list.

Yes whether in MTG, X wing, etc, there is skill, and skill can beat bad play by a better list.

Yes there is luck.

But even tho there is VARIANCE, LUCK, SKILL, ETC, over the long term, assuming that the best, better list, COMBINED with no mistakes, best skill by both the best list, lesser list, the best, better list game mechanically, and better, best skill, will overcome luck, variance, and win over the long term.

Thats why in Magic the Gathering the BEST, top tier, game mechanically, world championship deck, with a 10,000 win, 43 loss record, against the best decks, skill, etc, in the game, is the BEST deck.

Against THAT deck, yeah that deck can occasionally be beat by luck, and beat by skill.

But assuming both players are equally skilled, and dont make any mistakes, and no bad luck happens, that best deck will win, because its the better deck factually, logically, game mechanically.

The same kind of thing is true for X wing list.

Assuming the best, top of the top tiered, world champion X wing list, factually, logically, theoretically, game mechanically with a record of 10,000 wins to 43 losses, against the best competition, skill, list, etc, and assuming that both players, are equally skilled, dont make any mistakes, etc, and no bad, luck happens, etc, the best list factually, logically, game mechanically will win the most, over the long term.

The best way to consistently win, over the long term, is to build the best deck, list possible, and play with the best skill possible, and make lesser number of mistakes, have lesser amount of bad luck, all combined together. It doesnt matter how skilled you are, if you dont have the best, better decks,list, you will eventually, consistently lose. And if you are not skilled, then eventually your better, best deck, list, will lose consistently.

The FFG, and Wizards of the coast, the people who sell, these games, would have people believe, that there is no such thing as better, best decks, etc, so that people dont feel like they have to have the best, better decks, list, so that there less copying, net list, decking, so that people dont give up the game.

They put out all that Kume By Yah all list are great, etc, so that people, even when they lose consistently in casual play, in tournaments, with lesser list, decks, lesser skill, etc, that its all good, fun, not quit, not get burnt out, because spent too much time, money, etc, trying to build a better, best deck, so that they keep on playing, spending money over the long term, which makes the companies, stores more money over the long term.

The real truth, fact is that there are better, best list, decks, etc, game mechanically.

That why they have World champion list, deck winners, best, better list, deck RANKINGS, and best, better top, best tier 1 list, deck rankings, classifications.

If it was all luck, and all skill, and not about the best, better list, decks, game mechanically, they would not have best, better list, deck rankings, classifications.

So there are better, best, top builds, list, game mechanically, no matter how balanced the game is, no matter how skilled the game is, no matter how much luck in the game, etc.

There is value in building the best, better list, deck, build, etc, or at least the better, best list, deck, build as you can possible, assuming you are very skilled.

So there are better, best list, decks, builds, game mechanically, possible, and posting those list, decks, builds, can teach, show a person how to build better, best list, decks, builds, game mechanically

Instead of trying to be all no such thing as better, best list,decks,builds, game mechanically, and its skill that matters, not list, builds, decks, etc, and that they are all good, and all that BS, Kume, By Yah stuff, and instead of trying to debate, argue, convince, persuade others of that, instead please go somewhere else.

This thread is about posting the better, best list, builds, game mechanically, so that we can learn from that on how to make better, best list.

This thread is not the place for posting, debating, etc, that there is supposedly no such thing as a better, best game mechanicaly wise list.

Please either post a so called better, best game mechanically list, etc, and talk about those list, and why they are good, better, best, etc, or please be quiet, or go somewhere else.

Thanks.

[j_man_04 944]

 

37 minutes ago, Asturonethorius said:

Instead of trying to be all no such thing as better, best list,decks,builds, game mechanically, and its skill that matters, not list, builds, decks, etc, and that they are all good, and all that BS, Kume, By Yah stuff, and instead of trying to debate, argue, convince, persuade others of that, instead please go somewhere else

You're not going to get what you want because it's literally impossible, therefore pointless to argue the way you hope us to. This entire game is designed around it being impossible to have a best list. That's why the makers post frequent FAQs and new waves to break the trend. There is an argument for and against every list. That's just the way this game is, and we can't make an assumption about everything (skill level, etc).

The approach you're taking to spark a discussion isn't going to be very effective.

Edited March 18, 2017 by jwilliamson12

[Phanto Fiend 26]

5 minutes ago, jwilliamson12 said:

 

You're not going to get what you want because it's literally impossible, therefore pointless to argue the way you hope us to. This entire game is designed around it being impossible to have a best list. That's why the makers post frequent FAQs and new waves to break the trend. There is an argument for and against every list. That's just the way this game is, and we can't make an assumption about exerting (skill level, etc).

The approach you're taking to spark a discussion isn't going to be very effective.

Also, this ^^

[ForceM 1,456]

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?

There you go. You're welcome.

You could say it's netlisting, but real innovation happens seldom in X-Wing nowadays i'm afraid.

Like it was said before, there is no best list. But these are certainly the most efficient ones mechanically. Mostly before last nerf round, but then some are unaffected by the nerfs or might stay on top regardless.

Parattani is in the top spot by far because it has unbelievably good action efficiency, Damage mitigation, a stress mechanic and at least Fenn hits like a ton of bricks.

The rest is good flying and dice luck.

[Asturonethorius 5]

Thanks ForceM, thats exactly the kind of thing, post I am looking for.

Would you, others be willing to post list, and why you think they are the most game mechanically efficient, as you put it, instead of, in addition to the link you posted.

That would really stimulate, discussion, learning.

Thanks.

[Asturonethorius 5]

Also can, would you, others be willing to do a complete ship by ship, upgrade card by upgrade card, SP point by SP point breakdown on why, how Parattani, works, why, how its the most game mechanically efficient, and how to apply those things making other game mechanically most efficient builds, list, and when trying to improve upon a already built list, build?

[Hawkstrike 5,410]

Six HWK-290s.  More fun than a barrel of monkeys (defined as five HWK-290s).

[Asturonethorius 5]

Thanks Hawkstrike. Why is 5,6 HWK 290's, a game mechanically, efficiently, a top, better, best build, list?

Can you give a complete breakdown, on why, how it works, is better, best build?

What upgrade cards would you add, if any, if room points wise, and why?

What can learn from your build, that would help us to build other better list?

[Ronu 503]

OP, have you actually played the game? You want point by point info your not going to get it. This isn't Magic: The Gathering where you have power 9 cards and the ilk. I can attest a lot is practice of maneuvers, your play style, and willingness to make it work. CIP: 3 Tie/d Defenders with Ion Cannons made mince meat out of top net deck list. 

If you want a base then start at 8 TIE l/f's. Tons of basic tools, blocks, shots ect. Otherwise your discussion is a bit pointless as it's all opinionated and geared towards personal and faction preferences and changes daily.

[MS88 1]

As others have stated, there is no golden ticket, best, better, blah, blah lists in the game. There are top builds like parratani and palp aces, etc but even those lists can differ greatly within themselves.  That's the beauty of the game. What you seem to be looking for is netlisted builds so follow that link that ForceM posted. That should be all you need to look up the most current top lists to use.  Unfortunately it'll probably all change with the most recent FAQ and it'll probably change again in a few months when they release another one. 

The game is fluid, you'll never get the discussion you're hoping for. 

[Asturonethorius 5]

Game mechanics, efficiency is not opinion. If something gets to roll 10 attack dice, with lots of rerolls, dice modification, focus, etc, with little to no penalty, without giving up to much defense, and if that is effective, awesome game mechanically, efficiency wise, points wise, then if that was, were to be the case, that is not, would not be opinion, and is game mechanics, effiency, not opinion.

Opinion is where you think something is better, and where you cant show, prove it mathematically, game mechanically, efficiency, etc, and where it not fact, proven, etc.

If I say blue is a better color then red, without it being fact, proven, etc, that is subjective, opinion.

If I say a car is better mechanically, efficiency, then another car, because it is safer, goes faster, last longer, etc, and it is either true, factual, an or can be proven factually, scientifically, mechanically, mathematically, etc, then that is truth, fact, not opinion.

Likewise if I say a X wing ship, list is more game mechanically effective, efficient, etc, then some other X wing ship, list, and if that is factually, scientifically, mathematically, game mechanically, true, fact, etc, an or can, do prove it, then that is true, fact, etc, and NOT opinion.

[Asturonethorius 5]

Also your CIP about 3 Tie defenders making mincemeat out of a top net list:

1. Anything can happen 1, a couple, few, some times, because of luck, skill. I said that ackowledged that.

2. 3 tie defenders is nothing to snide at, and have been game mechanically efficient.

3. Because of above, a top netlist will occasionally lose.

4. So if the top net list wins 100 times, and loses once, 1 time to a tie defender...ok, whatever.

5. Its game mechanics, efficiency, odds, science, math, consistently winning, against good competition, that determines that something is better then something else.

6. Example: in No Limit Texas Hold Em, AA is a better, best hand, over the long term, assuming you play AA right, and that dont get unlucky. That is fact, scientifically, mathematically, game mechanically, efficiency, etc, true, fact. Likewise there are AA ships, builds, list, upgrade cards, etc, in X wing, that are better game mechanically, effiency, scientifically, mathematically then other non AA ships, builds, list, upgrade cards, etc.

Thats not opinion. Thats logical, factual, scientifically, mathematically true, fact, that can be shown, proven.

 

[Greebwahn 925]

OP you won't find anyone who can tell you a best list. The list itself is such a small aspect of this game, that its pointless. Sure dice mods are important, but dice mods can fail, especially if you have no clue how to fly, or when to use the dice mods. This game is, ultimately, about one person versus one person, not one list versus one list

[Infurion 7]

Op stop showing your noob side

[NakedDex 2,611]

What you're looking for simply doesn't exist. The combination of factors required to calculate the best possible combination of ships and upgrades available is enormous, not to mention entirely at variance based on player skill, opponent skill, and raw dice variance. You can mitigate factors for days in this game, and still never hit a statistically average result for a given list.

The Parattani build was mentioned above. That's a good list. It has solid strengths, not many weaknesses. It's considered solid, highly competitive, and without any real weakness. 
I've tabled Parattani with TIE Bombers a half dozen times. I've brought the list to a stalemate running TIE Strikers, and I've ioned Dengar off the board with Y-wings several times over. None of these ships are statistically "good", nor are they in "competitive" lists, but they can still wreck face when played right against a list that is considered "better" in every way. 

If there was ever a "best list", the game would effectively end. 

[Oberron 628]

op isn't talking about THE best list he is talking about the "best" lists that are top of the meta and why they are.

 

As for why the top list are the top list, aside from the important part of flying the list is the fact that most if not all list remove dice out of the equation in some way, or are able to "heal" in some fashion

[TheHumanHydra 665]

I think I understand what the OP is after. I'm not really qualified to answer, but I'll try.

Asturo, it seems you're about as new to the game as I am. Be aware that, because a major errata just hit, the new meta-game is only just taking shape. The best we can do might be to look at the previous meta's top lists and try to draw some lessons from them. I'll take a stab at Commonwealth Defenders, so named because it won Australian and Canadian Nationals in 2016. Please note, however, that the very best top list was probably Parattanni - Manaroo, Asajj Ventress, and Fenn Rau - not Commonwealth Defenders, and that both the TIE/x7 and Emperor Palpatine cards received significant errata in the latest FAQ that may well render this list obsolete for high-level tournament play. My explanation will discuss the list in its pre-FAQ incarnation so that lessons may be derived from it.

Countess Ryad (34)
Push the Limit (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Juke (2)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
Emperor Palpatine (8)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This list is all about reliability. The TIE Defender with the TIE/x7 title is simply an extremely efficient jouster (really, that's what a jouster is: a ship capable of giving and taking the same amount of damage as an opponent's for less points, so that it can go head-to-head with an opponent's ship and win on efficiency). The Defender checks the boxes of three attack and three agility which are essentially required for a small ship to be successful now. The TIE/x7 title provides it with built-in action efficiency in the form of a highly-potent free evade most turns. The Defender's high combined hull and shields allow it to survive a bad defensive roll, unlike the TIE Interceptor, which has even higher raw defence (in the form of Stealth Device and often the pilot's ability), but only three total hit points. Finally, the Defender has white K-turns, which may allow it to bring its weapons to bear more quickly, or with better dice modification available, than an opponent's ship after passing by, while also triggering TIE/x7. In fact, TIE Defenders will often simply K-turn back and forth past the enemy. This does present a weakness, however: the opportunity for the opponent to outmaneuver you by predicting the TIE Defender's move. The Lambda-class shuttle, on the other hand, is a sluggish vessel with poor defence. It is simply there as the only affordable platform for a supremely powerful supporting effect and must be protected. An opponent will often try to destroy it first.

Countess Ryad offers extreme flexibility in maneuvering. Furthermore, her K-turns are effectively green. This synergizes with her Push the Limit Elite Pilot Talent, which wants you to perform green maneuvers so you can use it on as many turns as possible and get maximum benefit from it. PtL allows Ryad to benefit from extensive dice modification on offence and defence, or from some repositioning without giving up full defensive mods. Twin Ion Engine Mk. II further synergizes with PtL by providing more green maneuvers for Ryad to perform. Ryad's weakness is that, with a Pilot Skill of only five, she does not get to see many opponent's ships maneuvers before taking advantage of her own flexibility in maneuvering, lessening its impact.

Colonel Vessery also benefits from extensive dice modification on offence and defence, as he receives free target locks on ships that friendly ships also have target-locked. His Juke EPT synergizes with TIE/x7, allowing the free evade to function offensively as well as defensively. Vessery's weaknesses are that he depends on friendly ships for part of his action efficiency, and that, with a Pilot Skill of only six, he may be forced to spend his free evade before he can make use of it with Juke.

Why not Juke on Countess Ryad? PtL also strengthens her offence, by allowing her to target lock while also focusing for full defensive mods, but is more flexible, since it also allows her to barrel roll, while its drawback of adding stress is reduced by her plentiful selection of green maneuvers. Why not PtL on Colonel Vessery? He already gets his target lock from his pilot ability, so PtL would not strengthen his offence, while he will not always need to barrel roll, so it would not be a very efficient pick, and he would suffer more from its drawback. Why not TIE Mk. II on Vessery? He doesn't have PtL, so he doesn't need it as much. (Note that with the new FAQ, however, TIE Mk. II may be more important on Defenders than before, as green moves will be necessary to clear stress now that it prevents TIE/x7 from functioning. Credit to MalusCalibur.)

Omicron Group Pilot is simply the only affordable Lambda pilot for this list. Collision Detector is free and has no drawback or opportunity cost, so why not? Emperor Palpatine provides extremely powerful and flexible (any result to any result, on attack or defence) die modification that can be used at exactly the time each turn it seems to be most beneficial (note that the errata made this far more of a guessing game). This is particularly potent in saving your ships from those poor defensive rolls that are bound to occur from time to time, rendering the Defenders' already-strong defence rock-solid. The Lambda has many weaknesses (dial, agility, action efficiency, action bar), and is the weak link in this list. An opponent will often try to destroy it first, to remove its incredible support effect from the game, making the Defenders easier to tackle.

Why not other upgrades on the Omicron Group Pilot? Because we can't afford them, and Emperor Palpatine is (was) better!

What lessons can we draw from this? That having all three dice modification tokens most turns, plus a backup die modification effect, is extremely powerful. This improves not only your offensive and defensive output, but also their reliability. Defensively, this multiplies the benefit of high hit points, as each of those hit points should last longer. The ability to keep your opponent's ships in arc while maintaining full modification is also extremely powerful. In the abstract, Commonwealth Defenders fire more frequently, hit harder, and are harder to hit, on a reliable basis, than many other ships.

Hopefully this helped. Defenders are often recommended as a very forgiving starting ship for new players (as in FFG's own recent article). I wouldn't rush out to buy a Palpatine until the meta settles, though, as, with the errata, lists that feature him may no longer be near the top.

Edited March 20, 2017 by TheHumanHydra

[Asturonethorius 5]

Thanks The Human Hydra thats exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

You posted a better, a 1 of the best, top tiered list.

Then you did a complete breakdown on why its a top list, why its so good.

You also pointed out weakness, strengths.

You also covered what we can learn from the list, in list building in general whether build rebel, scum, imperial, 2,3 ship list, large ship list, Tie Defenders, whatever, etc.

I learned a lot from your post. I will study it more. 

Your post, and hopefully other post like it will help not just me, but could, would, should help me, others to learn how to build better, top list.

Thanks

[Asturonethorius 5]

Also thanks Oberron, you, The Human Hydra, Hawkstrike, ForceM, have nailed it, what I am looking for, Especially The Human Hydra poster.