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markcsoul

The more I play against VCX's...

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Z-95 is the cheapest ship in the game, how can anything do its job for fewer points? There are good ways to run all of those ships. The firespray will be my next list building project.

Good point, however both the Scyk and the TIE do its job better, to say nothing of Sunny Bounder. For the same 12 points you get an equivalently durable blocker/jouster, but with barrel roll and a better dial. N'Dru is the best Z-95 pilot by a decent margin, but he's trumped by Scourge in the TIE in terms of practical use, and his alpha strike is around the same as a golden Sunny Bounder HLC attack.

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Turn without gaining stress? Throw five dice at range 1?

Rephrased for the underlying value:
"Stay pointed at a target? Break through token stacking aces defences?"

Electronic Baffle lets the Lambda turn if it really wants too, but the key to successful Lambda flying is slow play, and it is far more effective than the series of 2 turns required for a shuttle to get back into the fight.

As for attack power, Fen, Ghosts and Phantoms all have that same punch in much more agile frames at similar prices. Lambdas with FCS + HLC are 30 points, and are offensively better than a naked Batwing. At any rate, flying a shuttle for it's attack power isn't playing to its strengths regardless.

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Boba Fett was my favourite character since I first saw him in 1980.... Didn't say much and got **** done, naturally I thought the Firespray was awesome. Skip forward a millenia or so and started playing X Wing. The Firespray seems extremely underwhelming compared to other big ships. With the release of Most Wanted, I thought Boba's and Kaths pilot abilities were kinda cool, but then with ships like the Lancer, it can do what the Firespray does, but cheaper. 

I would LOVE if all the first few wave ships got an overhaul in dials, upgrades and point cost. IMO the Interceptor  should be able to do a Tallon Roll, it cant because it wasnt a thing on it's release. I am not sure how FFg would do it, but if things like cannons and modifications were cheaper for it, I would hope it would see more play. I have a Boba/Kath list that I like to play from time to time, but competitively.... Kylo would just Blind Pilot it to death until you had to take on a full 100 pts with probably just Kath.

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Not going to lie, the VCX bores the everloving s--t out of me.  Every time I've flown against it  (I don't own one) it's been a chore.  two TLT shots for plink plink plink damage, or autoblaster/accuracy corrector for the no-need-to-roll unavoidable hits, and the Kanan combo for the LOL-lose-a-dice return fire.  The ship exemplifies negative play experience to me.

The Firespray, at least - while certainly underpowered compared to the last few large base releases (and is that the fault there really with the Firespray, or the VCX/Punishing One/Shadow Caster?) - can be lots of fun to fly.

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10 hours ago, markcsoul said:

...the more I realize how vastly inferior firesprays are to them.  For similar points they are superior in almost every way.  More hit points, more attack dice, a second crew slot, a systems slot, a turret slot.  The 5k makes it easy to turn around when needed as well.  Really the only negative is the lack of EPT on any of them.  Yes they have 0 agility which can be rough with all the heavy hitters nowadays.  But thanks to FCS it's easy to take evade action each turn and avoid 1 damage per round at least.

I fly firesprays a lot still even though they seem to get pushed farther down the ladder of usability with each passing wave.  Yet I'm still able to usually get winning records with them.  But when they are matched up against VCX's they just get wrecked and it makes me sad for what the firespray could be if it ever got a fix/buff.

C'mon FFG, make a firespray aces/veterans already!  (Preferably with Jango paint scheme, but Kath's would look cool also).

G-52.JPG

I forgot the firespray was in this game.

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55 minutes ago, Astech said:

Good point, however both the Scyk and the TIE do its job better, to say nothing of Sunny Bounder. For the same 12 points you get an equivalently durable blocker/jouster, but with barrel roll and a better dial. N'Dru is the best Z-95 pilot by a decent margin, but he's trumped by Scourge in the TIE in terms of practical use, and his alpha strike is around the same as a golden Sunny Bounder HLC attack.

Going to agree to disagree here. I've flown the eight tie swarm and the eight zed, and the z-95 works better. Not to mention the dirty tricks Scum can bring to the table with their illicits.

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Going to agree to disagree here. I've flown the eight tie swarm and the eight zed, and the z-95 works better. Not to mention the dirty tricks Scum can bring to the table with their illicits.

That is your personal experience, which is fine, but mathematically the TIEs win hands down. Howlrunner makes it even more one-sided, and a crack+howl swarm will demolish 8 Z-95s. The only thing the Z-95 has going for it is one more hull, and that's it.

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58 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not going to lie, the VCX bores the everloving s--t out of me.  Every time I've flown against it  (I don't own one) it's been a chore.  two TLT shots for plink plink plink damage, or autoblaster/accuracy corrector for the no-need-to-roll unavoidable hits, and the Kanan combo for the LOL-lose-a-dice return fire.  The ship exemplifies negative play experience to me.

The Firespray, at least - while certainly underpowered compared to the last few large base releases (and is that the fault there really with the Firespray, or the VCX/Punishing One/Shadow Caster?) - can be lots of fun to fly.

You, sir, are right in my wheelhouse.

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9 hours ago, Warlon said:

Don't forget some love for the Imperial 'spray as well!

Y'all's Kath is MUCH better than ours...

Your going to hate me but I can't help believing if scum was a faction when the Firespray first came out there would have never been a Imperial version of it. So with that said I think any chance of a Imperial fix is very low on FFGs to do list. 

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11 hours ago, phild0 said:

I DO get sad when I open my carrying case and see my Firespray's sitting idol.

It is very difficult to play a Firespray instead of a Lancer these days. Mobile Arc at the same price point as Aux arc feels a no brainer. Also having easily triggered Utility based pilot abilities instead of dice ones makes the decision to pick a Lancer so much easier.

 

Woah, I never looked at it that way.  It truly is the same cost... And it has a better dial, and mobile > aux for everything except tailgunner... You do lose the Missile Bomb and Cannon slot, but those aren't really used often anyways.  The Lancer does have a 7/3 health line over the FS31 6/4, but that's a marginal change.  Asajj's ability is the best out of all of them (especially when coupled with Latts) but I'd argue then it's Kath & (scum) Boba.  The actions are the same, except the Lancer gains the mobile arc action as well.  Well then... The only thing that the FS-31 can do that the Lancer can't do better is consistently throw 4 dice (via either Kath or HLC), but the HLC version pays 7 more points, which... is 7 points and makes them not the same cost at all anymore.

 

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not going to lie, the VCX bores the everloving s--t out of me.  Every time I've flown against it  (I don't own one) it's been a chore.  two TLT shots for plink plink plink damage, or autoblaster/accuracy corrector for the no-need-to-roll unavoidable hits, and the Kanan combo for the LOL-lose-a-dice return fire.  The ship exemplifies negative play experience to me.

The Firespray, at least - while certainly underpowered compared to the last few large base releases (and is that the fault there really with the Firespray, or the VCX/Punishing One/Shadow Caster?) - can be lots of fun to fly.

That's sad to say,  I have a blast flying the Ghost, and Kanan in particular.  I've enjoyed him both with and without the Phantom docked.  You have to fly against him like you would Dash though - he's extremely susceptible to being donut holed on the sides (or R2-3 if it's a ABT version).  That's one of the reasons that I enjoy playing him so much, his PS5 coupled with his weakness make every action (especially from mid-end game) crucial... He's typically got 3 choices (in my builds) - Boost to prevent the donut holing, which sounds like it'd be an easy choice, but it's far from it - you have to be able to weigh the possibilities of what your opponent did, and what post maneuver actions can change his final position to determine if boost is the best move or not, Focus, which grants him two tokens (I've never flown Kanan w/o Recon Spec), presumably one for offense and one for defense, or Evade, which in a one on one scenario is strictly better than the focus die removal, and can be great when coupled with a Rey Focus pass, but doesn't provide you with an offensive modification.  Then, after the dust settles, you are faced with when do you spend your focuses?  Obviously if you don't have a shot (or are taking the ABT AC shot) you'll spend them on defense, but what if you're trading R1 primary shots with... let's say Fenn Rau.  Do you eat the 5 dice shot in order to maximize your 5v4 return fire?  Or do you gamble with just having a TL?  The decision tree on flying Kanan is huge, and it's one of the reasons that I keep coming back to him.

 

And I'm a bit sad to see you say he's a NPE for you.  With 0 agility, even with his ability and evade token (which short of a RecSpec/Jan or Lando he can't sustain), he's still taking damage from every shot.  Clearly the reduced damage on him can't be the NPE that you were referring to, especially when compared to the token stacking palp defending x7s and AT Fel & Inquistors that have been all the rage for the past year, where you can literally roll max hits, they can roll all blanks, and still walk away with no damage... Which means that the NPE for you must be the turret itself, which I just pointed out how vulnerable the 60+ (often into the 70s) point ship can be if you exploit its weakness.  For the price the Ghost pays to get 2 sets of TLT shots (or ABT or whatever) you could have 3 Y wings with the same turrets, covering themselves, and putting even more health onto the table.

Edited by Khyros

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5 hours ago, Astech said:

Good point, however both the Scyk and the TIE do its job better, to say nothing of Sunny Bounder. For the same 12 points you get an equivalently durable blocker/jouster, but with barrel roll and a better dial. N'Dru is the best Z-95 pilot by a decent margin, but he's trumped by Scourge in the TIE in terms of practical use, and his alpha strike is around the same as a golden Sunny Bounder HLC attack.

Rephrased for the underlying value:
"Stay pointed at a target? Break through token stacking aces defences?"

Electronic Baffle lets the Lambda turn if it really wants too, but the key to successful Lambda flying is slow play, and it is far more effective than the series of 2 turns required for a shuttle to get back into the fight.

As for attack power, Fen, Ghosts and Phantoms all have that same punch in much more agile frames at similar prices. Lambdas with FCS + HLC are 30 points, and are offensively better than a naked Batwing. At any rate, flying a shuttle for it's attack power isn't playing to its strengths regardless.

OK you've stumbled on one of my absolute bugbears in this game: comparing efficiency of ships based on price, ignoring roles and factions. It's like looking at a cow in a field and saying it's a terrible animal because goats are cheaper.

It's one thing to compare a Scum Z95 to a Scyk, but it's a vastly different thing to compare it to a TIE Fighter. That's not an option the Scum player has, so it's literally irrelevant. It's like someone saying "which is the better jouster for my rebel fleet?", and you say the Defender. Technically, the Defender is the best Jouster in the game, but the reality is that the answer is meaningless in the context of the question.

Similarly, comparing the Upsilon to Fenn is madness. They're neither the same faction, nor even ballpark the same role. One is a low HP aggressive flanker, the other is a high HP support craft with solid offensive firepower. This is apples and oranges stuff, and not at all the basis of reasoning behind saying there's "no good builds". If you want to compare the Upsilon to a ship, compare the to the Lambda: a slower ship with fewer HP, fewer upgrade paths, and less firepower - it's cheaper, but it may not be what your list needs.

 

Listen, I agree some ships need help, some aren't "tier 1" etc, but a ship is only as good as the person flying it. Discounting a ship out of hand through arbitrary cross faction comparison does no justice to that ship, alternate choices, or even experimental builds.

 

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14 hours ago, AdamGATX105 said:

A lot of rumors going around about Boba Fett appearing in the Han Solo film, if any of that is true I say it would be a safe bet to see a fix for it next year.

And if a Boba Fett movie still happens you might see something good with it.

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5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not going to lie, the VCX bores the everloving s--t out of me.  Every time I've flown against it  (I don't own one) it's been a chore.  two TLT shots for plink plink plink damage, or autoblaster/accuracy corrector for the no-need-to-roll unavoidable hits, and the Kanan combo for the LOL-lose-a-dice return fire.  The ship exemplifies negative play experience to me.

The Firespray, at least - while certainly underpowered compared to the last few large base releases (and is that the fault there really with the Firespray, or the VCX/Punishing One/Shadow Caster?) - can be lots of fun to fly.

This is just a matter of builds. Kanan/Biggs is not much fun for me to play against. But I recently played against double VCX + Y all with ABT and that was one hell of a game. It countered my list in every way.  Took every ounce of mental energy I had to pull it off and get the W. One of the best matches and one of the more fun matches I played at regionals.

I think the firespray will never be fixed without a specific title. One crew or one ept won't fix it because it is way overcosted. There is no reason to take a firespray over a lancer other than bombs.

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A few other points about the Firespray.

Many of those lists of ships that need fixes before the Firespray? Almost all are small ships.

The Firespray is arguably the second worst large ship in the game currently after the u-wing. Possibly third worst since the upsilon release and Palpatine nerf both will reduce the number of lambdas we see.

What's worse is that it's the oldest ship in the game to not get any direct fixes or buffs or some other strong reason to take them. With the possible exception of tailgunner. But that was more for the arc.

Both titles suck. There's no Firespray only mods. Imp versions don't get illicit. And one crew slot on a large ship is very limiting there is no system or Tech slots either.

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6 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

A few other points about the Firespray.

Many of those lists of ships that need fixes before the Firespray? Almost all are small ships.

The Firespray is arguably the second worst large ship in the game currently after the u-wing. Possibly third worst since the upsilon release and Palpatine nerf both will reduce the number of lambdas we see.

What's worse is that it's the oldest ship in the game to not get any direct fixes or buffs or some other strong reason to take them. With the possible exception of tailgunner. But that was more for the arc.

Both titles suck. There's no Firespray only mods. Imp versions don't get illicit. And one crew slot on a large ship is very limiting there is no system or Tech slots either.

Seems weird, but the Imperial one are now better than the scum version. 

The scum version is all about punching (Boba's reroll, Kath +1red dice, even Emon with his bombs tricks). But scum faction can take better puncher guys from other ships.

Now the Firespray itself have the Andrasta and SlaveI title. Andrasta...I want waiting the Bomblet Generator, the only way that this title will MAYBE work. But the SlaveI actually add "Extra Munition" to the ship (yes is a torp slot...so Extra Munition).

Imperial pilots are:

-Krassis add rerolls to all secondary weapons. So Extra Munition works well, Guidance Chips is nice, Krassis will hit pretty well with ordnance cards.  Then add 1 point Tractor beam to still use it after the double shots.

-Scarlet will stress you for any crit!! A stress generator for the Imperial side. Guidance chips fits pretty well with her ability, as Extra Munitions as well. So she will punch pretty hard (Homing, Concussion..) and maybe stress your target if it will dodge your hits. 

But even without ordnance, you have A score to Settle+Agent Kallus (or just one of them) to helping trigger her ability. As tactician as well (AstS+Tac?)

 

Imperials Firesprays are more specialyzed than the scum's one, seems to me. Boba is fine as a knife fighter, but do you really want him? No Rau? Heck even Guri Mindlink still better than him!

And Kath...meh, kinda similar. Yes you will shoot 4 dice on the back. So what? Any HLC will shoot 4 dice on the front, Fenn will shoot 5 at R1, now anyone can take Fearlessness etc. 

Both Boba and Kath have so many contenders...bur Krassis and Imp Kath, well, you will almost play something different with those pilots. Almost stress Kath into a faction with no dedicate stress-dealer pilots.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cerve said:

Seems weird, but the Imperial one are now better than the scum version. 

The scum version is all about punching (Boba's reroll, Kath +1red dice, even Emon with his bombs tricks). But scum faction can take better puncher guys from other ships.

Imperials Firesprays are more specialyzed than the scum's one, seems to me. Boba is fine as a knife fighter, but do you really want him? No Rau? Heck even Guri Mindlink still better than him!

And Kath...meh, kinda similar. Yes you will shoot 4 dice on the back. So what? Any HLC will shoot 4 dice on the front, Fenn will shoot 5 at R1, now anyone can take Fearlessness etc. 

Both Boba and Kath have so many contenders...bur Krassis and Imp Kath, well, you will almost play something different with those pilots. Almost stress Kath into a faction with no dedicate stress-dealer pilots.

Scum Kath is playable due to Tail Gunner

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Has anyone considered a two-hit wonder Krassis build?

Krassis Trellix (36)
Slave I (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Homing Missiles (5)
-43

I mean it's almost a budget Firespray.

Edited by Chillmire

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2 minutes ago, Chillmire said:

Has anyone considered a two-hit wonder Krassis build?

Krassis Trellix (36)
Slave I (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Homing Missiles Missiles (5)
-43

I mean it's almost a budget Firespray.

Tomax Bren does a better rendition of that for 10 points cheaper.

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3 hours ago, AdamGATX105 said:

My go to crew for her is still Dengar I find the rerolls much more useful. 

Reducing someone's Agility is more powerful, if you really want a reroll either get PTL for Focus + Target Lock or Predator

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

Mmm... it's not enough for me

It's a 4-5 Die attack that can remove also reduces the target's AGI.

That's absolutely playable.  Remember, Playable doesn't mean Tournament Quality.

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17 minutes ago, Talamare said:

Reducing someone's Agility is more powerful, if you really want a reroll either get PTL for Focus + Target Lock or Predator

It's a 4-5 Die attack that can remove also reduces the target's AGI.

That's absolutely playable.  Remember, Playable doesn't mean Tournament Quality.

Nor Firespray is for tournament at today (: but scum have a lot of nice crew, and choose Tail Gunner is always difficult for me. 

 

But....maybe Tail Gunner+Swarm Leader with some Scyks..mmm.

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2 hours ago, Talamare said:

Reducing someone's Agility is more powerful, if you really want a reroll either get PTL for Focus + Target Lock or Predator

It's a 4-5 Die attack that can remove also reduces the target's AGI.

That's absolutely playable.  Remember, Playable doesn't mean Tournament Quality.

If you dont roll hits, it doesnt matter what your Agi is. Dengar is better IMO

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18 hours ago, Talamare said:

Reducing someone's Agility is more powerful, if you really want a reroll either get PTL for Focus + Target Lock or Predator

I still find dengar more useful to me, especially with my dice rolling. Dengar also let's me reroll 2 dice vs aces which are very common today. Besides my Kath builds normally have her with outmaneuver ept which reduces the agility and followed by Dengar crew to help me get more hits.

Edited by AdamGATX105

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OK so we all agree Firespray are over coasted for what you get so how about a new Slave 1 title 3 points and increases agility by 1? Would that even the coast out? Too cheap? Too much? Firespray only can work on scum or imps, unique.

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