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Shecian

The Future of 2nd Edition

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On 9/28/2017 at 1:49 PM, Gridash said:

I'm sure it will be fun though, but for me it's also a confirmation that at least in terms of physical expansions, we won't be seeing anything anymore.

Too bad, I think the game still has a lot of potential.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Certainly we shouldn't have been expecting this to have been a physical expansion. Whether I'll enjoy this, *shrug* no idea. Though I don't imagine it'll get much play time at the table. I don't know if they expected this to be a stunning success or if it was just a quick to make DLC they could pump out while they're concentrating on starwars.

But going a while between physical expansions doesn't mean there won't be any anymore. Certainly we can't expect them to follow the MOM release schedule, they already have plenty of existing content to port over.

However there are certain classes and characters that get nerfed in RtL as well. At the very least if RtL is sufficiently successful some kind of conversion kit is not at all out of the question.

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35 minutes ago, Bucho said:

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Certainly we shouldn't have been expecting this to have been a physical expansion. Whether I'll enjoy this, *shrug* no idea. Though I don't imagine it'll get much play time at the table. I don't know if they expected this to be a stunning success or if it was just a quick to make DLC they could pump out while they're concentrating on starwars.

But going a while between physical expansions doesn't mean there won't be any anymore. Certainly we can't expect them to follow the MOM release schedule, they already have plenty of existing content to port over.

However there are certain classes and characters that get nerfed in RtL as well. At the very least if RtL is sufficiently successful some kind of conversion kit is not at all out of the question.

So the fact you say we certainly should not have expected a physical release is humorous. Why not? Its been over 18 months since any news on physical content.

 

Ffg has been releasing new editions of several of its games lately while pumping out expansions for titles they feel they can rake in money on. To say we shouldnt have expected a physical product for a game that hasnt had one in well over a year and a half and then saying physical content releases arent dead cant be serious. 

 

How long is reasonable considering xwing, armada, ia, rebellion, rw, runebound, mom, sw lcg, netrunner lcg, lotr lcg, got lcg, l5r lcg, destiny, android lcg, arkham horror lcg and bg, the list goes on all have had physical expansions in the last 9 months. Descent is 2x that time frame. 

Edited by Shecian

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I really hope to be proven wrong (those missing heroes/classes bother me a bit), but if I were a betting man, my chips would be on no more physical content for D2e. 

I know RtL has been spreading like wildfire and causing a surge in D2e sales, but what I'd actually like to see is the comparison of RtL downloads/ purchases and base game sales to Mists and Chains sales. I'd guess those expansions didn't sell up to expectations. If so, it only makes sense for ANA to commit most/all of its resources to RtL type expansions rather than box type expansions. 

 

Edited by Zaltyre

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I really hope Zaltyre's prediction is wrong... but I fear it may be true :-(

I too suspect that Mists and Chains did not sell well. I don't get their odd decision to split that campaign into two separate boxes either. Felt awkward and I doubt the decision made them any extra money.

I think they may just be going about things the wrong way.

Perhaps I'm just speaking for myself, but I think they need to focus on content that gives them the most game value for their development resources.

Creating new lieutenant packs, map tiles, hero and monsters sculpts is pricey to develop and costly to consumer. I also don't feel starved for more of these things!

Why not focus on small box content that breathes new life into what we already have? Additional hybrid classes, the missing Mage and Healer classes, new items, a new search deck, a new Basic III Overlord deck, new conditions, and a new campaign book like Heirs of Blood using more existing content? Maybe skirmish mode rules? Perhaps a balance update kit with new versions of weaker classes like Spiritspeaker?

Many of these things would improve the RtL experience too, and could be priced lower.

This is the direction I would go if I was FFG... despite all the content we have already, the game's potential still doesn't seem fully tapped yet - and it's not for lack of monsters and heroes!

Edited by Charmy

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Mist and chains didn't sell so well because there are not fantastic boxes. Personnaly i didn't buy them cause they don't turn the game in a way that i like. The content is also quite poor if we compare it to previous ones.
I would only go for them if there comes a RTL campaign with it.

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Splitting a campaign in two boxes can make sense if you want just a campaign per year and you push them out every 6 months, otherwise it is a boomerang (as it apparently happened). They should also consider other solutions (like already suggested by others: campaign books, "boxes with a mix of "things"", ...). A reduced speed in physical production can be expected after so many years and such a lot of physical items already out. Stopping completely, IMHO, is completely wrong!

BTW, I already wrote in the past (many months ago) that, IMHO, the physical game is already dead in FFG minds and what happened in the last two years is convincing me quite more. It is a pity, but the money I saved for FFG is going to other producers :-) I don't like their other lines of production

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16 hours ago, Shecian said:

So the fact you say we certainly should not have expected a physical release is humorous. Why not?

Because they would have been promoting it. It's been pretty obvious since gencon that this was going to be DLC.

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13 hours ago, Charmy said:

I really hope Zaltyre's prediction is wrong... but I fear it may be true :-(

I too suspect that Mists and Chains did not sell well. I don't get their odd decision to split that campaign into two separate boxes either. Felt awkward and I doubt the decision made them any extra money.

I think they may just be going about things the wrong way.

Perhaps I'm just speaking for myself, but I think they need to focus on content that gives them the most game value for their development resources.

Creating new lieutenant packs, map tiles, hero and monsters sculpts is pricey to develop and costly to consumer. I also don't feel starved for more of these things!

Why not focus on small box content that breathes new life into what we already have? Additional hybrid classes, the missing Mage and Healer classes, new items, a new search deck, a new Basic III Overlord deck, new conditions, and a new campaign book like Heirs of Blood using more existing content? Maybe skirmish mode rules? Perhaps a balance update kit with new versions of weaker classes like Spiritspeaker?

Many of these things would improve the RtL experience too, and could be priced lower.

This is the direction I would go if I was FFG... despite all the content we have already, the game's potential still doesn't seem fully tapped yet - and it's not for lack of monsters and heroes!

I agree with everything, except this:

"I also don't feel starved for more of these things!"

In my opinion there is room for much more suff, and we'll end up buying anyway :)

 

 

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On 9/30/2017 at 5:38 AM, Tintaglia said:

Mist and chains didn't sell so well because there are not fantastic boxes. Personnaly i didn't buy them cause they don't turn the game in a way that i like. The content is also quite poor if we compare it to previous ones.
I would only go for them if there comes a RTL campaign with it.

What's your issue with Mists?

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Personally I absolutely loved Mists and Chains.  It was such a welcome turn for my group to have a campaign that was really nail bitingly difficult from start to end.
 

The mists campaign especially seemed very well put together, allowing for longer encounters that were difficult for both OL and Heroes, without swinging wildly from one side to the other based on a single turn.  Sure there were some absolutely amazing 'come from behind' strategies that really made for some heroic moments (like when Sky killed an otherwise completely inaccessible boss during the final turn of the encounter via Vyrah's heroic feat), but over all there are far fewer cases where you can simply predict the winner of the encounter after the first or second turn.

(Mind you there are a few encounters where the heroes need to look at the quest rules before the first turn, and realize that if they do not vacate the entrance, they will be in big trouble.)

Over all, loved the expansions, the theme, and the mechanics introduced.  Tainted blood i think is probably the most under-appreciated mechanics change.  Without it, OL quests where OL needed to kill heroes as part of the goal degenerated into either;
*kill the same weak hero X times
*Kill the same weak heroes over and over again because you don't win unless you kill each of them once, and the only one you haven't killed is hiding behind a regenerating wall of heroic death machines.

With Tainted blood, the 'last hero standing' can stand up at most 2 heroes each round, deal with their tainted blood debuffs, and is forced to stand with them, or has to make a heroic stand to finish the objective.

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Mists and Chains are a bit disapoiting in two ways :

- they are separated boxes from the same one, and I'm almost sure they did this in hope of making more money since expansions sell lower than base box, and the more expansions it comes, the worst they sell.

- thoses boxes offers a really hard campaign not so well balanced in my opinion. They also offers hybrids classes where all of us were waiting for "usual" classes.

On top of that, Mists has no hero classes, no heroes at all, where chains offers classes. And about Waiquar's theme ... I hoped for Uthuk ... But I bought them because I hoped for some more !

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Maybe it is over for new boxes, but I would have liked them to at least test the market for a new Road to Legend story with an accompanying new box expansion. Given it seems the app has breathed new life into older game content sales, it would make some sense to see if the combination works well to lift new sales. 

If i had a free choice i would like to see an icy theme tile set, storyline with some new frost themed monsters and a couple of new heroes which have an ability or two that fits into the cold weather theme. I feel this at least would be fairly fresh v the older content. Maybe an ice queen enemy and some ice spiders or snow goblins, we have some older monsters that would fit nicely such as wendigos and ice wyrm. It is all a hopeful dream really i suspect ...

Edited by Crusaderlord
spelling

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6 hours ago, Crusaderlord said:

<snipped> I would have liked them to at least test the market for a new Road to Legend story with an accompanying new box expansion. <snipped>

My thoughts exactly, Crusaderlord.  I'm still hoping that they are working on that very thing.  That would take some time, and could explain why we got Frostgate instead of something more substantial.  Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but that would be the model they're using for Mansions of Madness 2E from the get-go.  

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On 10/3/2017 at 4:41 AM, rugal said:

Mists and Chains are a bit disapoiting in two ways :

- they are separated boxes from the same one, and I'm almost sure they did this in hope of making more money since expansions sell lower than base box, and the more expansions it comes, the worst they sell.

Fair point, for whatever reason I blame the not a big box weirdness on chains and just think of mists as a small box expansion.

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I can guess at why you feel that way. Mists, on its own, just looks like a small box which has extra focus on the OL. All small boxes before had (in addition to some shop cards, travel cards, tiles, and some new mechanic:

4-6 quests, 2 monsters, a LT, an OL class, 2 heroes, and 2 hero classes.

Mists has:

8 quests, 3 monsters, 3 LTs (A1 only), an OL class, no heroes, no classes.

Chains on the other hand offers a bit less (on its own):

8 quests, 3 monsters, 3 LTs (A2 only), no OL class, no heroes, 4 hybrid classes.

With Mists and Chains together, they are impressive (though still no heroes). Chains really feels like a "sequel" to Mists. Mists, as the "original", feels complete on its own.

I happen to really like these expansions for the content they offer and the way the tainted mechanic allows such a different experience.

This is 100% speculation, but I wonder if the timing of the Asmodee merger (since Mists and Chains were released before and after said merger) had more to do with the split than a simple cash grab.

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Well if chains and Mists would have been a big box sold at the same price as previous ones i wouldn't have said nothing...
Now that said i reckon monsters and Overlord class are pretty cool (perhaps too much cool). hybrid classes are also interesting.
But the campaign... is far too difficult for me and the quests so looong with never ending spawns of monsters.
When the heroes are killed due to the tainted effect they may not be revived and as a player you can be stuck and have to watch the others play. (so frustrating)
Personnal advice i prefer Nerekhall style or RTL  (hidden narrative elements are crucial to me).

For the future i would looove to see that aspect (hidden narrative elements/ dialogues, and so on...) push a lot further.
Something that would come close to what KS "Joan of Arc" will propose.
 

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In another post I pointed ideas of great stuff that should have been added to this game. I think more expansions makes it worse in the long run because of business plan, compatibility, balance (ehmm minimum balance) etc.

So I also suspect they will end the box expansions and move to DLC until 3rd edition.

I just sincerely hope they come up with a good conversion kit.  The conversion kit for 2ed is just... add your old monsters and heroes but you still need to buy the core set?

Frankly I have no problem with the hundreds of dollars I gave FFG but when I see that, or LCG's "buy 3 core sets" I immediately ignore the product.

They could just make a big core set for hardcore players that cost much less than 3 normal core sets you know.. why the greed ;)

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There's no doubt that Asmodée merging had consequences on FFG's planning and games.

I'm almost sure there was many thing to come for Descent. But they could have put hybrids classes in each of the boxes of Mists and Chains, seriously ...

And if boxes are really too expansives, books like "Heirs of blood" are easy stuff, they could even give some tiles with that expansion. The game needs campaign to live, and I personnally don't like so much the app

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On 9/29/2017 at 5:07 PM, Zaltyre said:

I know RtL has been spreading like wildfire and causing a surge in D2e sales, but what I'd actually like to see is the comparison of RtL downloads/ purchases and base game sales to Mists and Chains sales. I'd guess those expansions didn't sell up to expectations.

Seems to me that if anybody kept track of when the expansions left the printer to when they sold out a pretty decent guestimation would be possible.

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My hope is that the delay in physical content is the result of the devs being needed to catch the digital content up to the physical, and that once that's done we'll get some new expansions.  I really like the potential of hybrid classes to allow balanced parties to be created with any selection of hero characters, and I very much hope to see that potential realized before I die.

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:57 PM, dwetuski said:

My hope is that the delay in physical content is the result of the devs being needed to catch the digital content up to the physical, and that once that's done we'll get some new expansions.  I really like the potential of hybrid classes to allow balanced parties to be created with any selection of hero characters, and I very much hope to see that potential realized before I die.

I know that since the Assmodee purchase most of their crew is pulling double duty on games. I figure most of the Descent folks are heavily involved in Runewars and probably in SW: Legion as well. I just hope they get some time to come back and visit Descent. This is a game that they own the IPO so it is free money to them to continue, but lately it seems that they are concentrating on their new games. I see it for the SW: LCG, Destiny and L5R has their attention, and it seems Imperial Assault has taken a back seat to Legion. I wish they would hire more people, they have had a few people leave and they have juggled staff instead of replacing.

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