Irokenics

Sloane and 'spend' ability

119 posts in this topic

So lets say in squadron combat, a Sloane TIE Fighter rolls an accuracy vs an enemy Ace with Scatter.

You decide to spend the accuracy to spend the defender's scatter.

In the RRG page 4 under Defense Tokens, "A defense token cannot be spent more then once during an attack".

Does this mean that during this attack, that in the Defense Tokens step the defender cannot spend the Scatter due to it being 'spent' already?

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2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Note how the entire section you're referring to talks about the defender spending tokens in the spend token step.

Pre wave 6 there was no way for an opponent to make you spend your Def token (via an ability) iirc, just exhaust them, or discard them.

I can see both sides to this.

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Posted (edited)

The card says, you chose and spend one of the defenders def tokens, ergo they are defending, and it is being spent.

 

Edited by TheEasternKing

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Posted (edited)

I'm jesting, there is indeed some nuance here.

We have three relevant bullet points in that passage:

  1. The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
  2. A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.
  3. Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

 

  • Point 1 does not apply here, because it is the attacker spending the token first. So this point does not stop the defender from spending it again.
  • Point 2 does not specify who is doing the spending, nor does it restrict the timing to the spend defense tokens step. It makes a blanket statement that a token simply cannot be spent more than once during the entire attack. If taken "as is", this is enough to support the point raised by @Irokenics above.
  • Point 3 should however ring some alarm bells. Defense tokens do not produce their normal effect if spent as part of a cost. This is clearly not the case here. So what gives? Does it mean Sloane's ability forces a defender to spend a token, but that token still produces an effect? Clearly not, if only because the timing would be wrong - so we must be missing something.

And indeed we are - the introductory sentence defining the context and boundaries of the bullet points:

"Defense tokens can be spent by the defender  during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:"

Which is exactly @Green Knight's point. All three of the bullet points above are strictly limited to the defender, and to the Spend Defense Tokens step. If a token is being spent by someone else and/or at a different time (both of which are true here), the bullet points simply do not apply. Resolving things any differently is arbitrary, or breaks the game, or both.

EDIT: ...which is not to say a FAQ entry would be unwelcome.

Edited by DiabloAzul

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Posted (edited)

Do we already have clarity if the attackers "spending" is also resolving the defenders "spending effect"?

 

As an example:

A tie fighter rolls HIT HIT ACC to Tycho and decides to use the attackers spend ability.

Is the double HIT now negated due to the scatter effect? Because if yes, there is no need for the Defender to spend the ability another time.

 

 

Ninjad on bullet point1 :-D

Edited by Rocco79

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3 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

I'm jesting, there is indeed some nuance here.

We have three relevant bullet points in that passage:

  1. The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
  2. A defense token cannot be spent more than once during an attack.
  3. Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

 

The second bullet point is not even anywhere in the RRG.

The only parts about spending defense token are:

RRG page 2 / Attack:
4 . Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

RRG page 4 / Defense Token:
Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

RRG page 4 / Defense Token:
The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

RRG page 16 / Attack resolution:
4 . Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

All parts in the RRG only mention the defender. So the attacker can, if an upgrade cards allows it, spend as many as he want. And not related to anything the defender is doing with it.
And if the attacker is spending a defense token from the defender, the effect is not produced. Because only if the defender is spending the token during the spend defense token step it will produce its effect.

At least by the current rules (no one know what the FAQ W5 or even the FAQ W6 will bring.

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Posted (edited)

We may be looking at different versions of the RRG, as my bullet points were literally copied & pasted from the PDF.

EDIT: This one.

Edited by DiabloAzul

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Tokra said:

The second bullet point is not even anywhere in the RRG.

The only parts about spending defense token are:

RRG page 2 / Attack:
4 . Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

RRG page 4 / Defense Token:
Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

RRG page 4 / Defense Token:
The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.

RRG page 16 / Attack resolution:
4 . Spend Defense Tokens: The defender can spend one or more of its defense tokens.

All parts in the RRG only mention the defender. So the attacker can, if an upgrade cards allows it, spend as many as he want. And not related to anything the defender is doing with it.
And if the attacker is spending a defense token from the defender, the effect is not produced. Because only if the defender is spending the token during the spend defense token step it will produce its effect.

At least by the current rules (no one know what the FAQ W5 or even the FAQ W6 will bring.

It is. P4 defense tokens 8th bullet.

 

Defense Tokens
Ships and unique squadrons gain the defense tokens 
indicated on their ship and squadron cards during setup 
and place them next to their corresponding cards. Defense 
tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend 
Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects 
described below:
•     Redirect B: The defender chooses one of its hull zones 
adjacent to the defending hull zone. When the defender suffers damage from this attack, it may suffer any amount of damage on the chosen zone’s shields (up to 
the shields remaining on that zone) before it must suffer the remaining damage on the defending hull zone.
•     Evade D: At long range, the defender cancels one attack 
die of its choice. At medium range, it chooses one attack 
die to be rerolled. At close range or distance 1, this token has no effect.
•     Brace C: When damage is totaled during the “Resolve 
Damage” step, the total is reduced to half, rounded up.
•     Scatter A: The defender cancels all attack dice.
•     Defense tokens begin the game on their readied side. 
When a readied defense token is spent, it is flipped to its exhausted side. When an exhausted defense token is 
spent, it is discarded.
•     If the defender’s speed is “0,” it cannot spend defense 
tokens.
•     The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack.
•     A defense token cannot be spent more than once during 
an attack.

•     Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.

Related Topics: Attack, Status Phase

Edited by ovinomanc3r

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I'm going to take an unusual stand here, opposite the one that I took in my Screed thread.

As written, I have to agree that the token, once spent, cannot be spent again in the same attack. It is written.

However, that rule was written at a time when only the defender could spend defence tokens. The situation we are discussing did not exist. I do not think that the INTENT of Admiral Sloan was to spend the token AND lock it down for the attack. In this case, I'm going to go with what I think is RAI, rather than what is RAW; in my location, it will be permitted to spend the token that Sloan spent in the same attack.

OTOH, Since they included "The defender" in most of the other statements, it may be that they intended this. Note that even RAW, if my squadron spends one brace, the defender can, unquestionably, spend the other brace; "The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack." This would, however, come into play if a crit effect said "the defender much choose and spend one defence token," the defender couldn't, in theory, select a token of a type that had been spent during the defence token step.

TLDR; I can see both sides, but will go with RAI, rather than RAW. Alert the press.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Irokenics said:

Happy if it applies to defender only. Means you can spend 2 accuracies to double spend say a scatter token.

No you can't - Sloane's "while" effect can only be invoked once per event (i.e. per attack).

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1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

No you can't - Sloane's "while" effect can only be invoked once per event (i.e. per attack).

Ah just re read it. Its only 1 die anyway. All good.

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2 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

I'm going to take an unusual stand here, opposite the one that I took in my Screed thread.

As written, I have to agree that the token, once spent, cannot be spent again in the same attack. It is written.

However, that rule was written at a time when only the defender could spend defence tokens. The situation we are discussing did not exist. I do not think that the INTENT of Admiral Sloan was to spend the token AND lock it down for the attack. In this case, I'm going to go with what I think is RAI, rather than what is RAW; in my location, it will be permitted to spend the token that Sloan spent in the same attack.

OTOH, Since they included "The defender" in most of the other statements, it may be that they intended this. Note that even RAW, if my squadron spends one brace, the defender can, unquestionably, spend the other brace; "The defender cannot spend more than one defense token of each type per attack." This would, however, come into play if a crit effect said "the defender much choose and spend one defence token," the defender couldn't, in theory, select a token of a type that had been spent during the defence token step.

TLDR; I can see both sides, but will go with RAI, rather than RAW. Alert the press.

 

 

 

More to the point for me, since we're talking about Sloane:

With the specific exception of Phantoms throwing two reds and potentially getting Acc + Double (1/8 + 1/8 chance) - Or Maarek getting Acc + Crit....

...  Does it really matter?  I mean, on the tabletop...  Even if you do assume that the Token can only be spent once per attack?

 

90% of the time, we're talking about a single Blue die.  That is going to roll a Crit, and get Rerolled....  A Hit, and do Damage...  Or get an Acc, and Spend a Token.

Then the attack is over.

The next TIE fighter to attack is a new attack.

 

The Phantoms of course, still raise it as a discussion point - getting an Acc+double means you're not Bracing it, because they're probably making you spend your Brace....    So you'll have to redirect it, and be happy that you probably won't see that happen again for a good long while.

 

And Maarek is probbaly still going to make you spend your Brace in this way, unless he's really, really, really, really wanting to land that Crit on your Hull, you already have no shields, and a Redirect token he can mess with...

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It's important if you both spend that scatter AND the defender feels the need to still scatter. Can he or can't he.

Of course he can. Don't take a single bullet point out of context. Read the whole section.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It's important if you both spend that scatter AND the defender feels the need to still scatter. Can he or can't he.

With the exception of Lucky Phantoms, and Still-kinda-Lucky-but-mostly-Cheeky Maarek...  What is there to scatter?

Edited by Drasnighta

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23 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

 

More to the point for me, since we're talking about Sloane:

With the specific exception of Phantoms throwing two reds and potentially getting Acc + Double (1/8 + 1/8 chance) - Or Maarek getting Acc + Crit....

...  Does it really matter?  I mean, on the tabletop...  Even if you do assume that the Token can only be spent once per attack?

 

90% of the time, we're talking about a single Blue die.  That is going to roll a Crit, and get Rerolled....  A Hit, and do Damage...  Or get an Acc, and Spend a Token.

Then the attack is over.

The next TIE fighter to attack is a new attack.

 

The Phantoms of course, still raise it as a discussion point - getting an Acc+double means you're not Bracing it, because they're probably making you spend your Brace....    So you'll have to redirect it, and be happy that you probably won't see that happen again for a good long while.

 

And Maarek is probbaly still going to make you spend your Brace in this way, unless he's really, really, really, really wanting to land that Crit on your Hull, you already have no shields, and a Redirect token he can mess with...

This statement pretty much makes this entire conversation pointless. 2 squads can deal damage and use an Acc. And it appears no one uses Phantoms, so that just leaves Steele.

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Just now, Undeadguy said:

 

This statement pretty much makes this entire conversation pointless. 2 squads can deal damage and use an Acc. And it appears no one uses Phantoms, so that just leaves Steele.

 

...  WaitWaitWait,

Its okay.

 

No, I was considering just Squadron Versus Ship Combat.

 

I was TOTALLY NEGLECTING Squadron Vs ACE SQUADRON combat...

 

This is My Bad.

 

Mea Culpa.

 

Continue to Argue :D

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The First part of her ability is a Squadron without Rogue is attacking.

 

Doesn't matter what the target is.

The Target only matters for the Second part of her ability, which has additionally, if the target is a Ship....

 

 

So yes, I was Narrow-Focused, and missed important points.

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Sloane works on aces too?

She works against all. Against ship she gives the additional crit reroll

Edited by ovinomanc3r
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Posted (edited)

The funniest thing is that against ships she is not awesome as squadrons throw 1 blue die. And people is becom crazy about that. 

She is lethal against aces and nobody says anything XD

Edited by ovinomanc3r
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