Budmilka_fr

[Jet Troopers] Fly-By

24 posts in this topic

Hi, 

If my Jet Trooper declares an attack within more than 2 squares, he obviously doesn't have the blue dice bonus, but does he gain 2 movement points ?

My guess is he can, but I want to be sure.

Thanks !

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It can be argued, but as far as I know, the intent is that the 2mp is gained only when "The attack resolves", i.e. the one with the 1 additional blue die.

If 2mp were gained after any attack, it would be written as a separate ability.

Compare to Jets for intent.

 

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Posted (edited)

It had be argued in favor in a number of games I have had but I disagree. I believe it is cut-and-dry from a RAW perspective despite this recent interpretation. 

Quote

Fly-By: When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool. After the attack resolves, gain 2 movement points.

"When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 space," you gain a benefit. "After the attack resolves," grammatically meaning only the attack referenced in the last statement (the attack with the target space within 2 spaces), you gain an additional benefit triggered only after that attack resolves.

Edited by Smashotron

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Considering how regular jets work, I would be surprised if the intent was not for the ability to be similar.

That said, it is still a bit ambiguous.

frotes likes this

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The possibility of gaining the movement points regardless of the proximity of attack had never occurred to our group. We assumed it was contingent on that range of two or fewer. That could certainly change things. Has anyone reached out to FFG for clarification? 

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Yes, I know that the +2mp is intended to work only for the attack with the added die.

It should be clarified at some point, but probably not in the next faq.

 

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Posted (edited)

To me, the wording is clear. You always gain the extra movement.

 

FFG, for all their ambiguous wordings are USUALLY spot on with correct punctuation. In this case, punctuation and grammar gives you

Performing an attack if X is true (range), do Y (add dice). Full stop here is end of conditional clause. New sentence is new condition.

After performing this attack [here, to provide conditional meaning, it would need to say something along the lines of "if you added a dice"] do X [movement]

 

As for those arguing that use "Jets" [the rule ability on the grey unit]  for "intent", I would say that it confirms intent to my interpretation. The wording and phrasing are deliberately different, thereby implying different interpretations.

Edited by godofcheese

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, godofcheese said:

To me, the wording is clear. You always gain the extra movement.

 

FFG, for all their ambiguous wordings are USUALLY spot on with correct punctuation. In this case, punctuation and grammar gives you

Performing an attack if X is true (range), do Y (add dice). Full stop here is end of conditional clause. New sentence is new condition.

After performing this attack [here, to provide conditional meaning, it would need to say something along the lines of "if you added a dice"] do X [movement]

 

As for those arguing that use "Jets" [the rule ability on the grey unit]  for "intent", I would say that it confirms intent to my interpretation. The wording and phrasing are deliberately different, thereby implying different interpretations.

I still disagree in terms of the grammar, for the reason that Smashotron pointed out.  To me "When you resolve an attack.." followed by "After the attack..." clearly indicates that the "the" in the second sentence is referring to the attack in the first. 

If it was meant to be two completely separate abilities, why would they not write it on the card as two separate abilities?  And even if they needed to save room on the card or whatever, why use the word "the" at all?  It would be much more straightforward to just say "an" again: "When you resolve an attack within two spaces roll dice.  After an attack, gain two movement points".  There is absolutely no reason to use the word "the" there except to refer to the attack you just performed.  It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Edited by ManateeX

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Correct, the use of an in the second part of the ability means it is referencing the attack performed in the first sentence. However, you perform the attack in the first sentence whenever you perform an attack. The IF / THEN conditional clause in the first sentence does not affect whether you perform an attack or not, and the second part of the ability is deliberately separated from the conditional clause with a full stop and then references the attack  (not the original condition) as the new condition.

 

If both the extra dice and the movement were conditional of the target being within 2 spaces they would need to have used 'and' instead of a full stop, or referenced the condition of 2 spaces or adding a dice in the second sentence.

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, godofcheese said:

Correct, the use of an in the second part of the ability means it is referencing the attack performed in the first sentence. However, you perform the attack in the first sentence whenever you perform an attack. The IF / THEN conditional clause in the first sentence does not affect whether you perform an attack or not, and the second part of the ability is deliberately separated from the conditional clause with a full stop and then references the attack  (not the original condition) as the new condition.

 

If both the extra dice and the movement were conditional of the target being within 2 spaces they would need to have used 'and' instead of a full stop, or referenced the condition of 2 spaces or adding a dice in the second sentence.

Hmm... I had originally been in the "an vs the" camp but rereading the card I think this might be correct.  There is a comma after "when you declare an attack," which is usually how other cards separate a trigger from the rest of an ability.

I still just have a hard time believing that's truly the original intent but I have a feeling this is the way FFG will rule it.

Edited by Uninvited Guest

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Posted (edited)

"When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces" is the trigger timing and trigger condition for the die-adding ability. Yes, the full stop should be and for this discussion to not exist. ("When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool and after the attack resolves gain 2 movement points." - it doesn't seem very fluent though.)

I'm pretty sure someone has already asked for a ruling, but the answer has not surfaced where I frequent.

 

Edited by a1bert

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29 minutes ago, a1bert said:

"When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces" is the trigger timing and trigger condition for the die-adding ability. Yes, the full stop should be and for this discussion to not exist. ("When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool and after the attack resolves gain 2 movement points." - it doesn't seem very fluent though.)

I'm pretty sure someone has already asked for a ruling, but the answer has not surfaced where I frequent.

 

For this interpretation to be true, there would need to be an 'and', otherwise it is listing 2 separate triggering conditions - an attack and a range. The second ability then only makes reference to an attack. The comma's bracketing "if the target is within 2 spaces" create an independent clause relating to the object of the sentence, which in this case is the 2 dice.

Original Text: "When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool. After the attack resolves, gain 2 movement points. "

For your interpretation it would need to read: "When you declare an attack and the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool. After the attack resolves, gain 2 movement points. "

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, godofcheese said:

For this interpretation to be true, there would need to be an 'and', otherwise it is listing 2 separate triggering conditions - an attack and a range. The second ability then only makes reference to an attack. The comma's bracketing "if the target is within 2 spaces" create an independent clause relating to the object of the sentence, which in this case is the 2 dice.

Original Text: "When you declare an attack, if the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool. After the attack resolves, gain 2 movement points. "

For your interpretation it would need to read: "When you declare an attack and the target space is within 2 spaces, add 1 blue die to your attack pool. After the attack resolves, gain 2 movement points. "

I see what you're saying now, and now that I understand your point I agree that it's a lot more ambiguous than I had originally thought.  They really could have worded it more clearly by putting an "and" either in place of the first comma or in place of the period (or "full stop" as you folks call it across the pond).

With that said, I still don't think you gain the movement points if you're not within two spaces.  The "if the target is within two spaces" puts a condition on the "attack" in the first sentence (we agree on this).  What I believe you're saying, though, is that it only applies to the first sentence and not the second because they put a period/full stop in between.  Why's that necessarily the case, though?  By saying "the attack" in the second sentence they're still referring to the same attack as the first sentence, which had already been modified by the 2 spaces segment.  I think that it could easily be argued that the two space rule still applies, just like it could easily be argued that it doesn't apply - it all comes down to the intent of the speaker, really.

Having said all that, if I were to read this card in a vacuum (based only on how the ability is worded) I would probably agree with you that the more likely answer is that you gain the movement points regardless.  But we're not in a vacuum, and if you look at the way the regular jet trooper works I'd say that it's much more likely that if they intended for the elite to behave differently that they would have made that difference much more explicit.  I'm pretty sure they just split up what should have been one longer sentence into two shorter ones for readability, but as a consequence they wound up creating this ambiguity that we're talking about here.

TL;DR - grammatically, I think it could reasonably go either way and in either case it should be clarified.  But in the absence of a clear answer my best guess at the intent of the rule is that you only get movement if you attack from within two spaces.

Edited by ManateeX

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Posted (edited)

There is a lot of "if they meant (this) it would be worded like (this)" but Fly-By is clearly written. The use of the references a specific attack, a la "the attack with the target space within 2 spaces." To reference anything else, it would read aan, or any.

Quote

 

the

definite article

(used, especially before a noun, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article 'a' or 'an')

 

 

Edited by Smashotron

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

There is a lot of "if they meant (this) it would be worded like (this)" but Fly-By is clearly written. The use of the references a specific attack, a la "the attack with the target space within 2 spaces." To reference anything else, it would read aan, or any.

 

What godofcheese is saying is that although both sentences apply to the same attack, the 2 space rule only applies to the first sentence.  You can think of it almost like this, where I haven't changed any of the words or their order but just broke them out into bullet points to try and make the point clearer:

When you declare an attack:

  • if the target space is within 2 spaces, add a blue die to your attack pool.
  • After the attack resolves, gain two movement points.

"The attack" in the second bullet point still refers to the same attack as the first one, it just isn't contingent on the target being within two spaces.

 

The other way to interpret the sentence, which I (and you) think was probably the intent, would be to read it as:

When you declare an attack, if the target space is within two spaces:

  • add a blue die to your attack pool.
  • After the attack resolves, gain two movement points.
Edited by ManateeX

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I've asked FFG today (before i even knew about this thread).

I'm definitely in agreement with the 2 movement points regardless of 2 spaces for blue die. Different conditions, different effects.

The card reads: "When you declare an attack," (timing window) "if" (conditional) "the target space is within 2 spaces" (condition), "add 1 blue die to your attack pool" (effect) (full stop, new sentence). "After the attack resolves," (new timing window, and not contingent on the "if" statement in the previous sentence), "gain 2 movement points" (effect).

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On 22/03/2017 at 1:40 AM, ManateeX said:

TL;DR - grammatically, I think it could reasonably go either way and in either case it should be clarified.  But in the absence of a clear answer my best guess at the intent of the rule is that you only get movement if you attack from within two spaces.

That's the thing though, grammatically, it can't go either way. Does this mean that the dev's nailed their intention with the grammar? No, however the grammar is actually quite clear and there are other posts in the thread that are breaking it down, so I won't again.

I'm not saying I'm definitely right on how the card works, however, if it is ruled that the 2 movement points is dependent on the range of the attack, it is actually written so that it is grammatically inaccurate (wouldn't be the first time I've seen it happen).

On 22/03/2017 at 6:25 AM, ManateeX said:

The other way to interpret the sentence, which I (and you) think was probably the intent, would be to read it as:

When you declare an attack, if the target space is within two spaces:

  • add a blue die to your attack pool;
  • then after the attack resolves, gain two movement points.

I've changed the grammar so that it would read grammatically accurate for your interpretation.

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I submitted this as a rules question through the online form and have now received a response.

 

 

Hi again Jason!

 
The second part of Fly-By only awards the bonus movement points after an attack that qualifies to trigger the first part of the ability (within 2 spaces.)
 
This relationship between effects could certainly be clearer, and I’m looking to get it into the FAQ (though it won’t make it in the next release).
 
Thanks for the question. I hope that helps!
 
Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

 

 

So the card, as written, is grammatically inaccurate, but we now have an (un)official ruling to go off and I am happy to run with it.

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Well, we have a ruling...

"Hi Luke,

The second part of Fly-By only awards the bonus movement points after an attack that qualifies to trigger the first part of the ability (within 2 spaces).

This relationship between the two effects and the overall ability could definitely be clearer, and I’m looking to get it into the FAQ (though I don’t think it’ll make it into the next release).

Thanks for the question. I hope that helps!


Todd Michlitsch
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games"

Edited by perthling

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12 minutes ago, godofcheese said:

So the card, as written, is grammatically inaccurate, but we now have an (un)official ruling to go off and I am happy to run with it.

Is it really though?  I'd defer to someone with an English degree before I made that judgment.  Unless you have one.

I don't think just because they are two separate sentences it means grammatically they are completely unrelated.  Being a single run-on sentence or reiterating the condition again in the next sentence aren't the only two ways to phrase it.

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2 hours ago, DTDanix said:

Is it really though?  I'd defer to someone with an English degree before I made that judgment.  Unless you have one.

I don't think just because they are two separate sentences it means grammatically they are completely unrelated.  Being a single run-on sentence or reiterating the condition again in the next sentence aren't the only two ways to phrase it.

MEd (Master of Education) with a specialty in English (I teach English)

 

Also; you are correct, being separate sentences does not mean they are unrelated. Indeed, the the in the second sentence means that it is referring to the attack in the first, however grammatically, and functionally, the attack in the first sentence happens whether you gain the bonus dice from the condition or not, satisfying After the attack.

 

*edited to correct my own grammar (lol)

Edited by godofcheese
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Ask yourself, why would they hide a separate movement clause inside another ability, if the movement clause didn't depend on the first ability? In my mind, there isn't and has never been any other way to read the ability. "the attack" only has a single referral option, and that is the attack declaration mentioned in the first part. Otherwise, it would say "an attack".

Plus, the flavor explains everything. It's a fly-by - you move in close, make your attack, then swoop away again. 

Let's not make things more complicated than they are.. :)

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