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Ardaedhel

NuLeia

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12 minutes ago, Admiral Theia said:

Well of course the card rules overrule the rulebook.  It's only on the second page of the darn RRG. :-P

Two dials is not the same as two tokens, AND, that pesky "a" is not a factor in the quasar card.  Yes, we are in new waters, but I still think that precedent really tells us FFG's thoughts on this, in that "a" has always meant one and only one when used in this context.  Things that say discard a command token, or exhaust a defense token have always meant you could only utilize one, and I just don't see that changing for this Leia, and the Quasar's wording has no bearing on that, I think.

Indeed.

I mean, I'm on the record as basically saying that I expect it to only be the Single Dial+Token, and you have to use the Token some other way other than as a command (such as Fleet Command, Commsnetting away, Liasons, etc)...  Because if you can double up, I'm never using anything but the Princess-General ever again.


:D

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Im leaning toward Leia being that bit more restrictive than Tarkin. With the latter you can assign a bonus token for another order in addition to what you already have (on a dial). In addition, this neatly allows you to plan fleets around this (engine techs with tokens every turn, allowing you to concentrate fire with the dial for instance).

With Leia its great you get an augmented dial, but if you're an AF/MC80/Lib wanting to add a shield via a token, change speed via a token, you're buggered. Leia in a way is quite constrictive. 

 With this in mind I can see her be 38 for a stacking ability. With the Quasar title allowing an effective two dials its even more plausible.

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1 hour ago, GammonLord said:

Im leaning toward Leia being that bit more restrictive than Tarkin. With the latter you can assign a bonus token for another order in addition to what you already have (on a dial). In addition, this neatly allows you to plan fleets around this (engine techs with tokens every turn, allowing you to concentrate fire with the dial for instance).

With Leia its great you get an augmented dial, but if you're an AF/MC80/Lib wanting to add a shield via a token, change speed via a token, you're buggered. Leia in a way is quite constrictive. 

 With this in mind I can see her be 38 for a stacking ability. With the Quasar title allowing an effective two dials its even more plausible.

That is a good point.  I will say that, barring an FAQ, I'll be ruling against that interpretation in the store championship I'm running August.

But by Goddess I hope you're right.

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7 hours ago, GammonLord said:

Yeah, i totally agree it'll be safer to rule on the side of caution until clarification... but I just want an Ackbar MC80 with effective 8 engineering soooo bad!

You mean like this:

 

Never Say Die! 

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 399/400  

Commander: Commander Leia Organa

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

 

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)
-  Admiral Ackbar  ( 38  points) 
 Home One  ( 7  points) 
-  Engineering Captain  ( 6  points) 
-  Engineering Team  ( 5  points) 
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points) 
-  Redundant Shields  ( 8  points) 
= 183 total ship cost

 

Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 points)
-  Shields to Maximum!  ( 6  points) 
= 62 total ship cost

 

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)
 Redemption  ( 8  points) 
-  Engineering Team  ( 5  points) 
= 70 total ship cost

 

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Comms Net  ( 2  points) 
= 20 total ship cost

 

1 Biggs Darklighter ( 19 points) 
2 X-Wing Squadrons ( 26 points) 
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 

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7 hours ago, GammonLord said:

Yeah, i totally agree it'll be safer to rule on the side of caution until clarification... but I just want an Ackbar MC80 with effective 8 engineering soooo bad!

...except you can't have both Leia and Ackbar as your commander, so that's impossible no matter what.

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4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

...except you can't have both Leia and Ackbar as your commander, so that's impossible no matter what.

Of course, i was referring to the much anticipated Wave 7 "use two admirals" card... :D;)

Edited by GammonLord

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For mine, I just used Ackbar for the points, and forgot to change it on the ship card before posting.  This was just meant to be a Leia tank list (assuming double tokens).  That MC80 would auto-heal two shields per turn, plus 10 ENG whenever it wants (that's up to 7 shields per turn.  Yikes!!).

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On 2017-5-29 at 7:50 PM, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Pursuant doesn't say that you change or do anything with your actual dial and its already set command.
The squadron command you are allowed to use comes from the upgrade card, not the dial. Therefore there is no impediment there to use both the squadron command granted by Pursuant (which is treated as a dial command, meaning you can activate up to 4 squadrons or 5 if you have EHB), and spending the dial revealed to resolve its (different to squadron) command effect.

Yes. You have just REVEALED the original dial. You haven't SPENT it.

Would need to check the wording on Dial reveal and use, but I the ink the RAI is that it is a substitution of the original dial and not an addition to it.

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3 minutes ago, DarthBadger said:

Yes. You have just REVEALED the original dial. You haven't SPENT it.

Would need to check the wording on Dial reveal and use, but I the ink the RAI is that it is a substitution of the original dial and not an addition to it.

Then why word it the way it is, rather than say, the wording of the Wing Commander card?

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6 minutes ago, DarthBadger said:

Dunno

I appreciate the candor :D

But that fact - that the wording for that particular type of event already exists - and wasn't re-used, probably points towards the fact that its not intended to mirror that, and is, instead, explaning a new procedure.

 

latest?cb=20170520100729

 

So, I have Revealed a command.  Its say, Engineering.  Its showing on my Dial.  I have an Engineering Dial.

When triggers, and I discard the Card to Resolve a Squadron Command...   So the card is Discarded and I Resolve a Squadron Command.  I Treat this command I am resolving as if I spent a Squadron Dial.  (rather than a Token).

I resovle the Squadorn Command.

I still have an Engineering Dial, and now that my "When" trigger has ended, I continue on my Way...  

After Revealing a command, comes the choice on wether I spend that Dial to resolve that command, or Convert it into a Token...

 

...  So at this point, I can eithe Spend my Engineering Dial...  Or Transfer my Engineering Dial into a Token.

At no point during that "When" trigger have I done anything to that Dial other than Reveal it.

 

That is how the "When" trigger works.

Edited by Drasnighta

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28 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I appreciate the candor :D

But that fact - that the wording for that particular type of event already exists - and wasn't re-used, probably points towards the fact that its not intended to mirror that, and is, instead, explaning a new procedure.

 

latest?cb=20170520100729

 

So, I have Revealed a command.  Its say, Engineering.  Its showing on my Dial.  I have an Engineering Dial.

When triggers, and I discard the Card to Resolve a Squadron Command...   So the card is Discarded and I Resolve a Squadron Command.  I Treat this command I am resolving as if I spent a Squadron Dial.  (rather than a Token).

I resovle the Squadorn Command.

I still have an Engineering Dial, and now that my "When" trigger has ended, I continue on my Way...  

After Revealing a command, comes the choice on wether I spend that Dial to resolve that command, or Convert it into a Token...

 

...  So at this point, I can eithe Spend my Engineering Dial...  Or Transfer my Engineering Dial into a Token.

At no point during that "When" trigger have I done anything to that Dial other than Reveal it.

 

That is how the "When" trigger works.

Ok I'll rotate back in for the next pass on Pursuant.

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35 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Just want to point out a precedence here: if they'd meant for the title to be Wing Commander in the title slot, they'd have used the same wording, as Quantum Storm did with Engine Techs.

Great find supporting RAI too.

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2 hours ago, DarthBadger said:

Yes. You have just REVEALED the original dial. You haven't SPENT it.

Would need to check the wording on Dial reveal and use, but I the ink the RAI is that it is a substitution of the original dial and not an addition to it.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're pointing at.

What I mean is that the part "When you reveal a command" part is just to indicate when the efect of Pursuant triggers, but the effect doesn't affect at all the actual command dial shown.

It would be:

1. I reveal the command other than squadron, lets say Repair for the example

2. I decide to use Pursuant so I discard it to resolve it's effect as if it were a squadron command so I can activate 4 squadrons (note that this squadron command effect comes from the Pursuant upgrade card, not an actual dial)

3. I still have the command dial showing the Repair command as I didn't change it nor spent or discard it yet, so I use it to spend my 2 engineering points to repair my ship.

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6 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Sorry, I don't understand what you're pointing at.

What I mean is that the part "When you reveal a command" part is just to indicate when the efect of Pursuant triggers, but the effect doesn't affect at all the actual command dial shown.

It would be:

1. I reveal the command other than squadron, lets say Repair for the example

2. I decide to use Pursuant so I discard it to resolve it's effect as if it were a squadron command so I can activate 4 squadrons (note that this squadron command effect comes from the Pursuant upgrade card, not an actual dial)

3. I still have the command dial showing the Repair command as I didn't change it nor spent or discard it yet, so I use it to spend my 2 engineering points to repair my ship.

Yeah this should be the natural progresh.

Edited by Warlord Zepnick

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On 5/31/2017 at 2:43 PM, Drasnighta said:

I appreciate the candor :D

But that fact - that the wording for that particular type of event already exists - and wasn't re-used, probably points towards the fact that its not intended to mirror that, and is, instead, explaning a new procedure.

 

latest?cb=20170520100729

 

So, I have Revealed a command.  Its say, Engineering.  Its showing on my Dial.  I have an Engineering Dial.

When triggers, and I discard the Card to Resolve a Squadron Command...   So the card is Discarded and I Resolve a Squadron Command.  I Treat this command I am resolving as if I spent a Squadron Dial.  (rather than a Token).

I resovle the Squadorn Command.

I still have an Engineering Dial, and now that my "When" trigger has ended, I continue on my Way...  

After Revealing a command, comes the choice on wether I spend that Dial to resolve that command, or Convert it into a Token...

 

...  So at this point, I can eithe Spend my Engineering Dial...  Or Transfer my Engineering Dial into a Token.

At no point during that "When" trigger have I done anything to that Dial other than Reveal it.

 

That is how the "When" trigger works.

So you're saying this title lets you get 2 full dials effect in a single round? That's much better than I initially thought.

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Just now, Undeadguy said:

So you're saying this title lets you get 2 full dials effect in a single round? That's much better than I initially thought.

Yep.  Got to be different though.  So no squadron+squadron.  Because I don't think there's any way to modify a revealed dial once its been revealed ....  Wing Commander and Weapons Liason, etc, are all before you reveal the command, which would stop you from triggering pursuant if you selected Squadron.

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31 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Yep.  Got to be different though.  So no squadron+squadron.  Because I don't think there's any way to modify a revealed dial once its been revealed ....  Wing Commander and Weapons Liason, etc, are all before you reveal the command, which would stop you from triggering pursuant if you selected Squadron.

And we don't have a rule to support that the resolution of 2 dials of the same command counts as a single resolution of that command ;) ... or the opposite.

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Just so I'm sure before I start fielding Leia: The phrases "A ship can spend both a command dial and a command token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a single resolution of the command."(from the RRG) and "When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, [...] it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. [...]"(Leia Organa CC) mean that you cannot spend an existing token to gain its effects on top of Leia's effect.

So the 'dial' effect and 'token' effect are singular concepts divorced from the actual dial and token themselves, and can only affect the numerical value of a command once. That is what I am getting from this thread and reading the rules and cards(Leia and the Pursuant). As long as the effects of the dial/token is divorced from the game piece itself(as it has become with those cards) the word 'a' in the rules prevents Leia from stacking, correct?

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28 minutes ago, codegnave said:

Just so I'm sure before I start fielding Leia: The phrases "A ship can spend both a command dial and a command token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a single resolution of the command."(from the RRG) and "When a friendly ship resolves a command by spending a command dial, [...] it may resolve that command as if it spent a matching command token. [...]"(Leia Organa CC) mean that you cannot spend an existing token to gain its effects on top of Leia's effect.

So the 'dial' effect and 'token' effect are singular concepts divorced from the actual dial and token themselves, and can only affect the numerical value of a command once. That is what I am getting from this thread and reading the rules and cards(Leia and the Pursuant). As long as the effects of the dial/token is divorced from the game piece itself(as it has become with those cards) the word 'a' in the rules prevents Leia from stacking, correct?

Essentially.

To trigger Leia, you must spend (and only spend) a Command Dial.


"IFF" Away!

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3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Essentially.

To trigger Leia, you must spend (and only spend) a Command Dial.


"IFF" Away!

Assuming IFF refers to 'if and only if'.

I also assume (and only spend) is meant to specify the timing, the spending of the dial not the decision to take it as a dial?

If so that doesn't really affect the question here from what I can see.

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6 hours ago, codegnave said:

Assuming IFF refers to 'if and only if'.

I also assume (and only spend) is meant to specify the timing, the spending of the dial not the decision to take it as a dial?

If so that doesn't really affect the question here from what I can see.

You are correct on both counts.

Its only when you spend the dial.  Now, with Engineering and Squadron, that happens, essentially, immediately after you reveal the dial and decide if you want to trade it in for a Token...  For Navigate, it happens when you are maneuvering...  for Concentrate Fire, it happens when you are attacking.

 

 

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