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BlueMusketeer28

Rebels: The One Agility Faction

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11 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

Including the two new releases, 7 out of 18 ships are AGI1. 3 ships (including the TIE) are AGI3. One is AGI0. The remaining 7 are AGI2, including the U-Wing which is a load of whiff.

Imperials and Scum both have 3 AGI1 ships.

Rebels have shields, Imps have maneuverability.  It's what distinguishes the factions.

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TIE Punisher 1-agility.

YV-666 1-agility.

Decimator 0 agility

Scum have Y-wings also. Yeah calling the Rebels the 1 agility faction is like calling scum the 1 shield faction. Sure rebels tend to rely more on shields than fickle green dice. It is their faction trait but that doesn't make them the 1 agility. They still have E-wings and A-wings and most of their ships have 2 agility (X-wing, T-70, HWKs, YT-2400, Attack shuttle, Z-95, U-wings, w/obligatory title.

So Rebels yeah lower agility but not 1 agility.

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I know the following thoughts are probably considered "well duh" by most, but I think it illuminates the history in tandem with the current Waves.

Historically, the agility averages are thematic and was almost the exclusive design parameter by FFG, I'm thinking, by my simplistic observation. Rebels were to be all about lightly maneuverable ships with shielding on good hull with some regeneration of shields and Astromech adjustments. Imperials were to be about good evasive maneuvering with little to no shielding on good hull. The later introduction of the Scum faction was originally intended to be uniquely upgraded Rebel set-ups with shenanigans. Apart from this basic juxtaposition, the Rebel's do have outliers like the A-Wing (very maneuverable) and E-wing (almost as maneuverable and regeneration) as the Imperials have the RAC (tanky no agility ship) and the Punisher (no one flies it, so it doesn't matter about this 1 agility ship), but these basic design parameters held until the most recent Waves. However, additional cross-overs have been occurring in recent Waves to assist (what I assume is) in balance and create some faction diversity for hopeful sales increases...the Stolen TIE being the most abusive form of cross-over know to the civilized X-Wing player (let's not pull that scab off again, shall we?).

I agree with most threaders on this topic; Mr. Biggs and Regeneration are what hold some design space of Rebel ships and modifications in check, as it really has to be. Oddly enough, if one wants to b***h about a counter-point, think about this oddity: most recent Imperial ships have begun falling in evasiveness and are now required to spend squad points on modifications like Lightweight Frame to just get to the previously set 3 agility TIE standards.  Our world of black and white is becoming more and more a shade of gray......

 

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Yeah, the agility 1 trend with Rebels is... disheartening.

I know ficklegreendice will argue the point forever, but as far as I'm concerned rolling 3 hits and watching your opponent manage to evade most of them with greens is much more fun and leads to more tense and exciting games than rolling three hits and watching your opponent have to take them on the chin.

And that's what low agility ships do - take hits on the chin.  OK, so there are certain methods of mitigation (evade action, Chewbacca, C3-P0, Kanan pilot and now reinforce), and Rebels also have access to regeneration, but as far as I'm concerned rolling dice > more fun than not rolling dice.

And that's probably why I've drifted away from the Rebels, over to Scum and the Empire.

Well, that and the lack of love for X-Wings, Y-Wings and B-Wings.  I played a mixed Imperial list with T-70s the other day and literally watched them melt before my eyes (thanks in no small part to a TIE/D with Tractor Beam dragging my ships down to the agility 1 level).

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On 3/15/2017 at 6:40 AM, Lampyridae said:

Rebels however are counteracting with modifying attacker's dice. But it's kind of miserable to see your B-Wing evaporate from 4 Academy TIEs at Range 3 in the first round of combat.

Your base 22 point ship died to base 48 points of ship, why is that a bad thing? If you didn't blow up one of their own before that happened, you have only yourself to blame.

 

Rebels are quite stout thanks to their HP and agility. They know how long they will love once an engagement begins, that alone is a play style. Don't like that? Go high risk/reward with imperials. Not your thing go shenanigans with scum.

 

Rebels have a wide tool set, so I'm not minding them getting more of the same type of chassis to equip differently. I see this ship as a YV-666 lite.

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3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I know the following thoughts are probably considered "well duh" by most, but I think it illuminates the history in tandem with the current Waves.

Historically, the agility averages are thematic and was almost the exclusive design parameter by FFG, I'm thinking, by my simplistic observation. Rebels were to be all about lightly maneuverable ships with shielding on good hull with some regeneration of shields and Astromech adjustments. Imperials were to be about good evasive maneuvering with little to no shielding on good hull. The later introduction of the Scum faction was originally intended to be uniquely upgraded Rebel set-ups with shenanigans.

 

While I agree this is how it started, we have moved past this - for example,  the Upsilon Shuttle gives the Imps a tank with lots of firepower, shields and synergy. There is a mix of everything across all 3 factions now, except perhaps the only regen Imperials can have is Renforced Deflectors on a Lambda shuttle, and the Rebels are missing an awesome 3 attack 3 agility interceptor.

Don't get me wrong, Corran Horn is fantastic, but he's no Fen Rau or Soontier Fel. In a world of fickle green dice, Corran can't equip autothrusters. At pilot skill 8 he's lower than Rau and Fel, and he doesn't have enough green on his dial to clear stress from push the limit effectively. He's also the most expensive of the ace pilots in the 3/3 bracket, and that's before equipping upgrades. You can't arc dodge as well in an E-Wing as the Interceptors. The A-Wing is fun to fly, but with 2 red dice it just doesn't have the firepower.

But the main reason I feel the Rebels need a 3 attack 3 agility ship with a boost (and therefore autothrusters) is the boost ordnance has had in the game. It is possible with the right build (and some luck) to one shot a Y-Wing, ARC-170, B-Wing  and to seriously damage a U-Wing. If you don't do it in one volley, two ships with ordnance will do the job easily. With a more agile ship, it can evade some of the hits from a volley, keeping it in the fight longer and giving the 1 agility ships chance to contribute. The basic E-Wing is too expensive to fill this role, and without autothrusters just gets chewed up by twin laser turret.

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In a world of token stacking defence and massive attack, anything with low agility and lots of hit points is facing an uphill struggle, especially if it's costed for earlier waves where these things didn't exist.

Here's a VERY simplistic example of how this hurts...

Ship A: 3-3-3-0

Ship B: 3-1-5-3

 

In each turn:

 - Ship A does 2 damage to ship B through it's one green dice. Ship B dies in 4 turns.

 - Ship B does 1 damage to ship A through it's 3 green dice. Ship A dies in 3 turns.

So far, so good...

 

Now let's add a an extra defensive buff to each ship, that stops one damage a turn.

 

In each turn:

 - Ship A does 1 damage to ship B. Ship B dies in 8 turns.

 - Ship B does 0 damage to ship A. Ship A ... never dies.

 

Of course, this fails to take a whole load of different factors into account, but I feel it's still a reasonable illustration of what's happened in X-wing. Hyper-defensive and offensive ships have created an arms race, where it's necessary to have massive attack to push through stacked defences, and stacked defence to survive the massive attack.

The problem is that ships caught in the middle - those without super attack or defence values - are pushed out, unless they're VERY efficient (Jumpmasters, Asajj) or have highly effective tricks (Asajj, K-wings). The Rebels, tending to have lower agility and relying more on hit points, have suffered the most.

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On 3/15/2017 at 7:15 AM, Vineheart01 said:

Rebels have always been bad agility. The only 3agi ships they have is the Awing and the stolen TIE. Heck not even that many of their ships are 2agi.

Its the plague that regen and biggs brought. If they get a ship that has access to ANY regen and its super evasive by default it would only NOT be broken if its attack was pathetic.

Yeah but we can't even get 2 agility ships these days. ARC could easily be 2 agility. Same with this new wookiee ship. Even tie bombers get 2 agility...

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It's intentional...

Rebels - Tank with Low Evasion and Healing
Scum - Balanced
Empire - Squishy with High Evasion

In other words...

Rebels = Paladin
Scum = Fighter/Warrior
Empire = Rogue

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5 hours ago, Hedgehogmech said:

In a world of token stacking defence and massive attack, anything with low agility and lots of hit points is facing an uphill struggle, especially if it's costed for earlier waves where these things didn't exist.

Here's a VERY simplistic example of how this hurts...

Ship A: 3-3-3-0

Ship B: 3-1-5-3

 

In each turn:

 - Ship A does 2 damage to ship B through it's one green dice. Ship B dies in 4 turns.

 - Ship B does 1 damage to ship A through it's 3 green dice. Ship A dies in 3 turns.

So far, so good...

 

Now let's add a an extra defensive buff to each ship, that stops one damage a turn.

 

In each turn:

 - Ship A does 1 damage to ship B. Ship B dies in 8 turns.

 - Ship B does 0 damage to ship A. Ship A ... never dies.

 

Of course, this fails to take a whole load of different factors into account, but I feel it's still a reasonable illustration of what's happened in X-wing. Hyper-defensive and offensive ships have created an arms race, where it's necessary to have massive attack to push through stacked defences, and stacked defence to survive the massive attack.

The problem is that ships caught in the middle - those without super attack or defence values - are pushed out, unless they're VERY efficient (Jumpmasters, Asajj) or have highly effective tricks (Asajj, K-wings). The Rebels, tending to have lower agility and relying more on hit points, have suffered the most.

That's all useless Theory, how it plays out in game is...

Ship A does 3 damage to Ship B, loses all Shields
Ship B attacks Ship A, rolls all blanks on Evasion, Ship A DIES
Ship B then goes on to Regen all his Shields back to Full, and goes looking for Ship C to kill as well

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