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clanofwolves

Maybe the designers are a year behind, or gun-shy...

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I love this game and I think the designers were fantastic through wave four (then I came along and played it, coinscience?!?). Anyway, the latest FAQ, like its details or not, seem to be a year behind in the making, to me, opinion and all. Yes, Zuck was overpowered (a year ago), Palp was a little overpowered (well over a year ago), Roo was overpowered (a year ago), Defenders were overcosted when designed and the fix was a bit overpowered on the X7 (a year ago). So, it begs the question: are the designers a year behind due to fear of screwing up again on these outliers? (As in the FAQ that can be released immediately) or, does the business end of the business from design through production and shipping force their hand to insure product viability and complete sales of the original wave orders? It seems to me the latter, doesn't these needs assist the latest --or not released newest-- Wave ships? Hummmmmmm?

maybe I need my tea. I'll shut up now. Cheers!

Edited by clanofwolves

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I'm not saying you're wrong with the core message of designers being late, but "a year ago" is wrong for all except Palpatine...

Dengaroo - July 2016 (9 months ago)
Paratanni  - October (?) 2016 (5 months ago)
x7 - July 2016 (9 months ago)

And they all took some time to be established, AND they are definitely allowed some spotlight, while everyone else should get the opportunity to find an effective build/approach against them.

So <6 months is more correct, and that is not too bad in my opinion. There are other problems that we've been waiting longer for.

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1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

...like an X-Wing fix?

That's one of them, yes. I didn't want to derail the thread, but...

Others include:

  • Y-Wings with EPTs
  • Khiraxz fix
  • Starviper fix
  • Other tournament modes
  • campaigns, better missions
  • an answer to power&complexity creep
  • the shift to list bulding
  • the shift to actions instead of movement
  • ...

That's by no means an exhaustive list, but they all took more than 6 months already

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29 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's one of them, yes. I didn't want to derail the thread, but...

Others include:

  • Y-Wings with EPTs
  • Khiraxz fix
  • Starviper fix
  • Other tournament modes
  • campaigns, better missions
  • an answer to power&complexity creep
  • the shift to list bulding
  • the shift to actions instead of movement
  • ...

That's by no means an exhaustive list, but they all took more than 6 months already

You forgot the top of the list as long as you're derailing ?:

the Punisher that doesn't

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2 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

X7 should have been just "your action bar gains the Evade icon" from the get go...

Compare generic Defender with it's 1 more hull and white K with the genetic E-Wing. Rebels OP! 

Compare a previously dead ship to a ship that only sees the field because one pilot has an incredible effect... 

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46 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

Compare a previously dead ship to a ship that only sees the field because one pilot has an incredible effect... 

And we're back to the point I wanted to underline - where Rebels became a victim of a couple design choices for years now.

R2-D2 means no Astromech capable ship can get free token stacking, nor good agility for a competitive price tag. Defense capabilities of Agility 1 ships are viewed through the Biggs-lens. Corran is "fine" for 48 points. I mean, sweet f! 48 points for a 5 health small ship with no innate action economy and a mediocre dial... I mean, sure, if you're completely incompetent, he can run off and regen those 3 shields, but there's so many modified red dice flying around these days, I'm surprised there are still people who have the balls to fly him.

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37 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

And we're back to the point I wanted to underline - where Rebels became a victim of a couple design choices for years now.

R2-D2 means no Astromech capable ship can get free token stacking, nor good agility for a competitive price tag. Defense capabilities of Agility 1 ships are viewed through the Biggs-lens. Corran is "fine" for 48 points. I mean, sweet f! 48 points for a 5 health small ship with no innate action economy and a mediocre dial... I mean, sure, if you're completely incompetent, he can run off and regen those 3 shields, but there's so many modified red dice flying around these days, I'm surprised there are still people who have the balls to fly him.

You have a point I have noticed. Rebels have a few of the nicest toys in the game. R2-D2, Biggs, R5-P9, Janson, the Stress Bot. These are all very powerful but unique and often expensive upgrades, but they have unfortunately effected the design of every rebel ship. X-Wing can't be fixed due to Biggs, Y-Wings can't have EPTs for fear of Biggs and Astromech Healing, ecetera. The problem is that this has made these pieces the center of Rebel play, since everything is designed with them in mind, if you aren't playing them, you are taking a handicap. Everyone likes to complain about Biggs and Regen, but it's all the Rebelion has really. We can't out ace interceptors, out stack defenders, or previously, outsupport the shuttle. Even rebel control is limited by reliability (minus R3-A2). It is rather frustrating at times, because I would love to (and do) fly things like the T-70 as a heavy interceptor (seriously try it, that thing can move) but it sucks to know that it has been overpriced for fear of the regeneration I'm not using on it. 

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" Everyone likes to complain about Biggs and Regen, but it's all the Rebelion has really "

Well, there's Miranda, the best small-base ship in the game. And there's the triple Ks, an absolutely beast-mode list.

And then there's the Ghost - one of the most flexible and hard hitting ships in the game. Cheap and nasty with a Lothal; or list-defining uber-shenanigans with Kanan or Hera.

Poe is a force again, but people aren't playing him much yet. Jess Pava and Snap-stress-Nien are very decent pilots too.

The Arc has some great builds. Heck, Norra alone has some great builds.

Dash is still the monster that hard-deletes an awful lot of lists, and he's only gotten better in recent waves.

The Falcon still has the chops to build a list around at the highest level.

Ahsoka is legit, and can enable some very potent maneuvers for the ships she's supporting. Rex is a funny troll for 14pts.

... Rebels are in a great place right now, with the demise of some of the game's biggest power lists. They went totally untouched by the mega-nerf, and already had some very powerful lists. 

But sure, act like regen, biggs and stressbot are the faction's only virtues... 

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59 minutes ago, banjobenito said:

" Everyone likes to complain about Biggs and Regen, but it's all the Rebelion has really "

Well, there's Miranda, the best small-base ship in the game. And there's the triple Ks, an absolutely beast-mode list.

And then there's the Ghost - one of the most flexible and hard hitting ships in the game. Cheap and nasty with a Lothal; or list-defining uber-shenanigans with Kanan or Hera.

Poe is a force again, but people aren't playing him much yet. Jess Pava and Snap-stress-Nien are very decent pilots too.

The Arc has some great builds. Heck, Norra alone has some great builds.

Dash is still the monster that hard-deletes an awful lot of lists, and he's only gotten better in recent waves.

The Falcon still has the chops to build a list around at the highest level.

Ahsoka is legit, and can enable some very potent maneuvers for the ships she's supporting. Rex is a funny troll for 14pts.

... Rebels are in a great place right now, with the demise of some of the game's biggest power lists. They went totally untouched by the mega-nerf, and already had some very powerful lists. 

But sure, act like regen, biggs and stressbot are the faction's only virtues... 

Thank you. I don't understand all the complaining about rebels. They have some really good setups. I was watching  a youtube video of sling-paint covering a tournament in South Carolina and a guy with a Rey Falcon and Fin, tactical jammer (cant remember the other upgrades) and Jan ors with trick shot, moldy crow and kanan destroyed his opponent in 20 min! I cant remember all the ships the opponent had but one was definitely an X/7 Countess Ryad and a palp upsilon shuttle pre nerf (2 weeks ago). Then there are all the videos i've seen with some form of a ghost list just laying down the pain in tournaments. You're always at the mercy of the dice but the rebels have decent options.

Edited by Phoenix5454

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4 hours ago, Mef82 said:

X7 should have been just "your action bar gains the Evade icon" from the get go...

Compare generic Defender with it's 1 more hull and white K with the genetic E-Wing. Rebels OP! 

Yes please allow defenders to have autothrusters. Much weaker.

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1 hour ago, banjobenito said:

" Everyone likes to complain about Biggs and Regen, but it's all the Rebelion has really "

Well, there's Miranda, the best small-base ship in the game. And there's the triple Ks, an absolutely beast-mode list.

And then there's the Ghost - one of the most flexible and hard hitting ships in the game. Cheap and nasty with a Lothal; or list-defining uber-shenanigans with Kanan or Hera.

Poe is a force again, but people aren't playing him much yet. Jess Pava and Snap-stress-Nien are very decent pilots too.

The Arc has some great builds. Heck, Norra alone has some great builds.

Dash is still the monster that hard-deletes an awful lot of lists, and he's only gotten better in recent waves.

The Falcon still has the chops to build a list around at the highest level.

Ahsoka is legit, and can enable some very potent maneuvers for the ships she's supporting. Rex is a funny troll for 14pts.

... Rebels are in a great place right now, with the demise of some of the game's biggest power lists. They went totally untouched by the mega-nerf, and already had some very powerful lists. 

But sure, act like regen, biggs and stressbot are the faction's only virtues... 

Agreed the idea that Rebels need one of those 3 options is wrong. In fact, Rebel list building is what list building should look like for every faction. When I build a rebel list, every ship has at least one option I can comfortably take and expect to be successful with. Ideally, there would be more than just one option for a number of these ships (E-wing most specifically), but at least the options are there.

 

Both Imperials (Punisher, Firespray) and scum (K Fighter, Starviper) have ships that are very difficult to find place for no matter what. Iron out those issues, and I think this game is in a fantastic place.

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5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...like an X-Wing fix?

Lol... i don't want to go there again, but it has been one of the longest requested fixes, and tournament data should agree that the X-Wing T-65 is... well it's not bad, just inexistent i guess.

Don't get me wrong i would eventually love to see the T-65 on the tables again but at this point i have grown somewhat indifferent.

What i really ask myself is why they did not attack this problem earlier. I mean they fixed so many ships by now and most of the fixes are really awesome and very well made. Why not the X-Wing. Some say it's because of Biggs, but i don't really buy that.

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13 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Lol... i don't want to go there again, but it has been one of the longest requested fixes, and tournament data should agree that the X-Wing T-65 is... well it's not bad, just inexistent i guess.

The Endor open had 3 x-wings in the top 8 IIRC, in 3 different lists, and one of them wasn't Biggs. It's not in a great position overall perhaps, but it's hardly nonexistent. 

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42 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Agreed the idea that Rebels need one of those 3 options is wrong. In fact, Rebel list building is what list building should look like for every faction. When I build a rebel list, every ship has at least one option I can comfortably take and expect to be successful with. Ideally, there would be more than just one option for a number of these ships (E-wing most specifically), but at least the options are there.

 

Both Imperials (Punisher, Firespray) and scum (K Fighter, Starviper) have ships that are very difficult to find place for no matter what. Iron out those issues, and I think this game is in a fantastic place.

Rebels were not in a good spot until now though. Until the U-Boats nerf they were really unable to win the slightest flowerpot, after that it went better again.

We were very far from every faction winning 33% of tournaments (as would be the ideal imho)

Scum was probably the strongest faction with Empire close second and Rebels lagging behind.

Enumerate their "viable" options all you want, in the end Scum and Empire had the real top notch lists for quite some time now.

There is a reason they went unscathed in the big nerf round after all. But I think now they will be a strong competitor again.

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

The Endor open had 3 x-wings in the top 8 IIRC, in 3 different lists, and one of them wasn't Biggs. It's not in a great position overall perhaps, but it's hardly nonexistent. 

Yeah there were tournaments won by A-Wings  Scyk (pre faq), and HWK lists too.

Nonexistent still fits their appearance in the meta quite well though...

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4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Rebels were not in a good spot until now though. Until the U-Boats nerf they were really unable to win the slightest flowerpot, after that it went better again.

We were very far from every faction winning 33% of tournaments (as would be the ideal imho)

Scum was probably the strongest faction with Empire close second and Rebels lagging behind.

Enumerate their "viable" options all you want, in the end Scum and Empire had the real top notch lists for quite some time now.

There is a reason they went unscathed in the big nerf round after all. But I think now they will be a strong competitor again.

What are you talking about, in recent tournament results across the world. Scum and Rebels are dominating with Empire spamming Palp and Defenders.

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Personally I think FFG missed two Rebel abilities in the recent FAQ:

1. Sabine --  I think she should have to be on the ship that dropped the bomb, or in range 1-3 of it (or both) for her ability to trigger.  It shouldn't be the entire squad, on the entire map, all the time.

2. Miranda regen on TLT is too generous, since there's a second shot.  I'd like to see her ability limited to "primary weapon only".

YMMV.

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19 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Yeah there were tournaments won by A-Wings  Scyk (pre faq), and HWK lists too.

Nonexistent still fits their appearance in the meta quite well though...

If you look at meta-wing, x-wings aren't actually uncommon in rebel lists.  They're just almost all biggs.  And it's not like a system open is jsut a random store kit tournament.  It's a fpretty high level tournament for having 3 x-wings in the top 8 if they're "non-exisitent"

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8 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Personally I think FFG missed two Rebel abilities in the recent FAQ:

1. Sabine --  I think she should have to be on the ship that dropped the bomb, or in range 1-3 of it (or both) for her ability to trigger.  It shouldn't be the entire squad, on the entire map, all the time.

2. Miranda regen on TLT is too generous, since there's a second shot.  I'd like to see her ability limited to "primary weapon only".

YMMV.

Another idea for miranda is for her ability to affect the dice rolled on both shots with TLT, similar to how gunner requires both shots to miss.  So if you want to regen, you're firing 2 dice on both shots.  The flip side would be that speding a shield would give you 2 4-dice shots.

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