Corner case question regarding attacks - warning, pedantic question ahead

[thecactusman17 3,192]

I'm hoping people recognize that this is (a) a little pedantic and (b) definitely only applicable in specific corner cases.

When attacking outside of the normal activation order, is there an attack step or is the attack performed without the attack step? 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

I feel like this is a trap, but...

Yes, it goes through all the steps on page 2 Attack. No, it doesn't get 2 attacks as specified on page 11 Ship Activation.

Why do you ask?

I suspect the root of the question will be related to one of Dras' long-standing gripes: the two distinct uses of "attack", one a subset of the other.

[thecactusman17 3,192]

Yeah probably.   I'm trying to figure out if upgrades that trigger before, during or after the "attack step" can only trigger during your activation.

 

Also,  if they need to occur specifically during the first Atco step,  or if they'd include an attack later in the activation such as Demolisher.

Edited March 12, 2017 by thecactusman17
Clarified language

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Well, under the context we have, there's no reason to think it would be restricted to the first attack step, right? So, if you had Ackbar running Demolisher, you could maybe justify choosing to make his decision before the second attack step... Though 1) obviously impossible, and 2) that's using a pretty debatable interpretation of Ackbar's timing, which was recently pointed out to be a bit problematic with QLT.

Is there a particular mechanical interaction you're looking at? What brought this up?

[thecactusman17 3,192]

The one that is currently most applicable is the Impetuous title. 

With QLTs.

/mind you,  I haven't used it because the s***storm it would likely cause without agreement first would be the sort of thing that gets people kicked out of gaming groups. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by thecactusman17

[Daht 481]

While I'm 99% sure that is not intended, it's an interesting rules lawyering   

 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Pretty sure the Ackbar Demo combo would never work, disregarding the cross faction thing, because you would violate one of the condition on Ackbar, which is attacking from only the sides. So if you say no to Ackbar for the 1st attack and use the front arc, and then move and trigger Ackbar to attack from the side, you already broke Ackbar's condition. 

But I guess you could say yes at first, attack with 1 side, move, trigger Ackbar again, and use the other for 4 reds 4 blacks?

Would triggering Ackbar twice fall into the "A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event" rule? They are 2 separate events.

In regards to the Impetuous/QLT combo, legally it would work. You perform an attack, and the title triggers. My only doubt is what the "Attack Step" is intended to be. It says it on Ackbar too. I'd make the claim that the formal "Attack Step" is after you reveal your dial and resolve that step, and then proceed to attack. If I'm right, and this is the "Attack Step", then this catches Ackbar as well. This is different than a QTL attack, which is regarded as a counter. I can see it argued both ways, but I bet the intent was for both to be involved with the normal attack sequence. 

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

17 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

My only doubt is what the "Attack Step" is intended to be. It says it on Ackbar too. I'd make the claim that the formal "Attack Step" is after you reveal your dial and resolve that step, and then proceed to attack. If I'm right, and this is the "Attack Step", then this catches Ackbar as well. This is different than a QTL attack, which is regarded as a counter. I can see it argued both ways, but I bet the intent was for both to be involved with the normal attack sequence. 

Good catch here.  The Attack step is part of the ship's activation.  So IMO that would be the only time you could use the Impetuous title.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

5 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Good catch here.  The Attack step is part of the ship's activation.  So IMO that would be the only time you could use the Impetuous title.

But the RRG doesn't state what the "Attack Step" is explicitly. 

Ship Activation

• Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
  • 1. Reveal Command Dial: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Then either place the dial next to the ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the corresponding command token next to the ship in the play area.
  • 2. Attack: Perform up to two attacks with the ship from different hull zones.
  • 3. Execute Maneuver: Move the ship at its current speed.

• After a ship activates, place its revealed command dial faceup on its ship card to track that it has activated.
• Each ship can activate only once per round.

You could extrapolate that the formal attack process is the "Attack Step" via the ship activation rules. I highlighted for emphasis. Each of these things are a step, so you could make the argument that the attack is the "Attack Step" and the attack rules dictate how every attack is made.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

I'm not sure its reasonable to claim that the "Attack Step" can possibly mean anything other than the "Attack" "step".

I mean, the ship's activation sequence consists of three "steps", one of which is called "Attack". How much more explicit can it get?

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Formally speaking, you can do things other than attack during the "Attack Step" (well, you could, if there was an upgrade card with what timing), and you can attack outside of the "Attack Step" (e.g. Demolisher, QLT).

Names are just names - call them Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 if you want. Unless otherwise specified, you do A in Step 1, B in Step 2, and C in Step 3. But if a card tells you to do B after Step 3, that doesn't mean you get another Step 2.

Anyway, the definitive proof is in the Demolisher FAQ:

Demolisher only affects one of the ship’s
attacks. It must perform its other attack during
the Attack step of its activation or that attack is
forfeited.

In other words, one attack takes place during the Attack Step, the other one does not (and does not create a new Attack Step).

Edited March 13, 2017 by DiabloAzul

[Undeadguy 5,749]

1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

I'm not sure its reasonable to claim that the "Attack Step" can possibly mean anything other than the "Attack" "step".

I mean, the ship's activation sequence consists of three "steps", one of which is called "Attack". How much more explicit can it get?

I agree with you and it solves the issue of the 2 example stated above. But the RRG does not explicitly say there is an Attack Step. I searched for it and there are no results. This is a key word issue, where several upgrades state "Attack Step" but that phrase is not mentioned in the rules. Maybe I'm looking to hard into this, but the upgrades take care to capitalize "step" so one would assume there is an "Attack Step" somewhere in the rules. The only place I can find something close to this is what I listed above, and in the LTP book.

Attack
During this step, the ship can perform up to two attacks. An attack originates from one hull zone, and the target must be inside that hull zone’s firing arc (see “Firing Arcs and Hull Zones” on page 9).  

I dealt with this a lot in MTG. Like stacking Lifelink with a Loxodon Warhamer to effectively gain double lifelink. One has a keyword, and the other has the text of the keyword but is not explicitly said to be lifelink. I know the games are not equivalent, but Armada also deals in keywords so the concept is the same.

The Impetuous/QLT is a good example of this. Using QLT, you can counter, which is defined as:

Counter X: After a squadron performs a non-counter attack against you, you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to X, even if you are destroyed.

And an attack is defined as:

Attack: To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:

It is reasonable to assume you are in an "Attack" step since you are performing an attack. If this is true, then Impetuous would get to trigger.

There is no defined keyword or mechanic to prevent this from happening, besides our best guess at the intent of the "Attack Step" during the ships activation.

 

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

The Attack Step is Step 2 of a ship's activation. The Attack Step (normally) contains two attacks. But not all attacks are made during the Attack Step. Just like not all squadron activations happen during the Squadron Phase.

Again, see the FAQ for concrete evidence of this.

[JgzMan 401]

I would counter-argue that QLT allows you to perform "an attack," but "your attack step" is part of your ship's turn.

 

Consider RR-p2: Attack: "To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:" - but none of the following steps are "Attack."

Then, consider RR-p11" Ship Activation: "When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps." And the steps are defined as Reveal Command Dial, Attack, Execute Manuver.

This clearly defines "Attack Step" distinct from "An Attack."

[thecactusman17 3,192]

Interesting.   This raises intruiging questions about Admiral Akbar I wasn't previously aware of. 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

Interesting.   This raises intruiging questions about Admiral Akbar I wasn't previously aware of. 

Like what?

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

If the attack step was just the attack Impetuous would fall in a loop.

At the end of your attack step you may perform an attack. Then we would find a new attack step so it wouldn't be the same event and then Impetuous could be triggered again and again and again. Every unique squadron would suffer "The horribly slow murderer with the extremely inefficient weapon" but this time the weapon would look extremely efficient.

For more clarification we have this from the RRG 

Ship Activation
Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1.     Reveal Command Dial [step]: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Then either place the dial next to the 
ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the corresponding command token next to the ship in the play area.
2.     Attack [step]: Perform up to two attacks with the ship from different hull zones.
3.     Execute Maneuver [step]: Move the ship at its current speed.

•     After a ship activates, place its revealed command dial faceup on its ship card to track that it has activated.
•     Each ship can activate only once per round.

Related Topics: Attack, Commands, Ship Movement

So we have the attack step others already point to.

[thecactusman17 3,192]

24 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Like what?

For one, you have to decide to use him before making any attacks at all. Which I was not previously aware of. 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

For one, you have to decide to use him before making any attacks at all. Which I was not previously aware of. 

Not exactly. You could attack with QLT before your attack step so Ackbar cannot be triggered and activates later and then ackbarize something. 

Something I am not sure about is if you QLT from your front hull zone be for your activation what would happen. Is the Ackbar limitations retroactive?

[thecactusman17 3,192]

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Not exactly. You could attack with QLT before your attack step so Ackbar cannot be triggered and activates later and then ackbarize something. 

Something I am not sure about is if you QLT from your front hull zone be for your activation what would happen. Is the Ackbar limitations retroactive?

Well,  I'd DA is right then it wouldn't be retroactive but it would apply to every counterattack made after Ackbar's ability was declared.   Per the Ackbar card it applies until the end of the round. 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

11 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Well,  I'd DA is right then it wouldn't be retroactive but it would apply to every counterattack made after Ackbar's ability was declared.   Per the Ackbar card it applies until the end of the round. 

But are you able to choose to attack only from your left and right hull zone this round when you already attacked from your front or rear hull zone thus round? Could I swear I won't take my breakfast today after I had eaten it?

The wording is this round not until the end of the round. Not sure if it makes a difference. I just point out the exact wording of Ackbar. 

[thecactusman17 3,192]

22 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But are you able to choose to attack only from your left and right hull zone this round when you already attacked from your front or rear hull zone thus round? Could I swear I won't take my breakfast today after I had eaten it?

The wording is this round not until the end of the round. Not sure if it makes a difference. I just point out the exact wording of Ackbar. 

The wording in question is "Before a friendly ship's attack step, it may choose..."

This decision isn't made until immediately before the attack step.   So the question then again becomes if the attack step only occurs during the ship activation. 

[Tokra 2,147]

8 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

If the attack step was just the attack Impetuous would fall in a loop.

At the end of your attack step you may perform an attack. Then we would find a new attack step so it wouldn't be the same event and then Impetuous could be triggered again and again and again. Every unique squadron would suffer "The horribly slow murderer with the extremely inefficient weapon" but this time the weapon would look extremely efficient.

For more clarification we have this from the RRG 

Ship Activation
Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1.     Reveal Command Dial [step]: Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Then either place the dial next to the 
ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the corresponding command token next to the ship in the play area.
2.     Attack [step]: Perform up to two attacks with the ship from different hull zones.
3.     Execute Maneuver [step]: Move the ship at its current speed.

•     After a ship activates, place its revealed command dial faceup on its ship card to track that it has activated.
•     Each ship can activate only once per round.

Related Topics: Attack, Commands, Ship Movement

So we have the attack step others already point to.

This is again a problem when they use terms that are not defined.

Basically we have two "Attack".
One is the "Attack step" during the ship activation. And the second are the "Attack steps" (declare target step, roll attack dice step, ...) that have to be done during an Attack.
A counter attack is doing an Attack, and has to follow the attack steps. But it is not an Attack step, related for anything that refers to attack step (like the Impetuous Titel).

This is at least the best explaination that i can find for it.
 

In other words:
During a ship activation you are doing the "Attack step". During this "Attack step" you are doing the subroutine: "Attack". After finishing the "Attack" you come back to the "Attack step" and finish it (Impetuous triggers).
When you are doing a "Counter Attack" (or any other kind of attack) you are just doing the subroutine: "Attack". And after finishing it, the "Counter Attack" just end. But you never went over the "Attack step" routine from the ship activation.
No idea if this is easier to understand what i want to say .

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

18 minutes ago, Tokra said:

In other words:
During a ship activation you are doing the "Attack step". During this "Attack step" you are doing the subroutine: "Attack". After finishing the "Attack" you come back to the "Attack step" and finish it (Impetuous triggers).
When you are doing a "Counter Attack" (or any other kind of attack) you are just doing the subroutine: "Attack". And after finishing it, the "Counter Attack" just end. But you never went over the "Attack step" routine from the ship activation.

 This.

The Attack Step is a part of the ship's activation in which you can (normally) perform two Attacks.

Certain abilities like Demolisher and QLT let you perform Attacks outside the Attack Step. But anything that triggers off the Attack Step only happens during step 2 of the ship's activation.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

The wording in question is "Before a friendly ship's attack step, it may choose..."

This decision isn't made until immediately before the attack step.   So the question then again becomes if the attack step only occurs during the ship activation. 

The timing is clear and it only happens during the friendly ship activation. This is not the question anymore  (I think). The question is if I can choose an use Acklam after attacking from other hull zone this round. 

The fact that I should choose after what I did before affects what I can choose. If I ate my cake I cannot choose to eat it again.

I think on Yavaris. They are different cards and I could be wrong but I see that if the squadron moves during its activation through Yavaris it cannot attack twice. No matter if it moves before it attacks or after and to move and shoot is not a choice you have to declare before anything. You just do one thing and then the other.

Is not the choice you do what legitimates the two dice of Ackbar rather than the fulfillment of that choice. At some point or maybe as a continuous effect, you must check if you fulfill tht you only attack from your left and right hull zone this round. Did you?

- Well, there is this QLT I used from my rear hull zone but it was before Ackbar. 

- But it happened this round. Ackbar doesn't say henceforth.

I'll probably agree that as intended Ackbar would work just because it is easier but as worded I am inclined to think he doesn't. The difficulty remembering if I attacked from another hull zone previously this round cannot be the main argument for ruling.

Anyway I will wait until we got an answer. I didn't see a QLT yet in my area so no problem