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Lightsaber crafting, is this right?

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Hello everyone, i finally got my hands on Endless Vigil awesome book so far but i notice something.

On the DM kit the check for lightsaber crafting is a lore or mechanics check but endless vigil rules say is just mechanics.

As endless vigil say that this rules are not meant to overwrite the ones in the dm kit i was wondering if anyone knows whether that is an error or is as intended?

Thank you.

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The GM kit rules for saber crafting are simplified rules that were released earlier in the cycle. To give an option, you would use one or the other., not both.

This was confirmed by the devs in the q&a session that was on the order 66 podcast

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13 minutes ago, syrath said:

The GM kit rules for saber crafting are simplified rules that were released earlier in the cycle. To give an option, you would use one or the other., not both.

This was confirmed by the devs in the q&a session that was on the order 66 podcast

So if i have a character with ranks in lore and no mechanics i would be better off with the gm kit rules?

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I used a probably over-generous amalgam of lightsaber crafting rules for my pcs. None of them had ranks in lore or mechanics, but their holocron gave ranks in lore. So they could use lore or mechanics, with force dice as though modding a crystal. Threats and advantages didn't really come into play, but they would have had choices there from the dm's kit or endless vigil. These were the same rules they got for crafting and modding attachments. This was almost certainly a mistake. But it was nice to synthesize everything from the three sources into one coherent mess.

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   I do things a little differently depending on if they're building a hilt or modding a crystal. I treat the hilt as a purely mechanical device. The difficulty is generally 2, so even without the Mechanics skill they should be able to handle it in a roll or two, and the materials aren't crazy expensive. If they roll some threat, well, that just means their lightsaber has an interesting quirk.

   Modding a crystal has a higher difficulty, and a higher cost of failure. Chances are, you just went on a quest to find a rare crystal worth thousands of credits. If you blow that Mechanics roll, you've screwed yourself a bit.  So I allow either Lore or Mechanics, and you can add your Force dice to the roll. If you're attuned to the crystal (which in my game means you probably had to find and harvest it yourself), you get a 2-point difficulty reduction.

   I don't recall where each of those little tweaks comes from, but it basically means any experienced Jedi would have a decent lightsaber. A solid Force rating and a couple ranks of Lore would be plenty.

   A good Artisan or Armorer, on the other hand, would have not only a maxed-out crystal, but an expertly crafted hilt, with extra hard points, personalization, and weird little tricks. 

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I play a lore-heavy Mystic.  When I was crafting my first lightsaber, I was allowed to use Lore to craft the actual weapon, but had to revert to Mechanics for any modifications beyond those granted by the crystal.  I was actually worried, because I didn't know I was going to be using mechanics (and I had zero ranks).

If you want to listen to me making my lightsaber, it's online at Dice For Brains: Xen's Lightsaber.  We start talking about lightsaber construction at the 5:30 mark.  It includes a unique crystal that my GM spent quite a bit of time working out the balance of.

Also, as a note, we used the color wheel at the end to determine blade color, based on LS & DS, Advantage & Threat, etc (base color yellow, I think, toward blue for positive, toward red for negative.  Our head canon is that most blue & green blades come specifically from the way Jedi teach their younglings how to craft lightsabers.

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This system does a great job of giving different ways to approach things - like the different ways to repair system Strain for example, and the flexibility built in to Force checks vs. PCs/Adversaries/Nemesies - but not so with Lightsaber crafting. INT-linked Skills only. People have been hinting at this "problem" above.

I wanted to craft a LS with my PC, but she has nothing to do with Lore or Mechanics so I just bought a hilt and am "making do" with my un-modded crystal. Luckily she's Cunning and rolled very well (5 Successes) on her Streetwise and found exactly what she wanted for the hilt - Guard Hilt Shoto w/ a Curved Hilt mod >:D

But anyway, I still felt a little robbed of that IC experience because it wasn't mechanically viable.

Has anyone explored the idea of non-INT-based LS crafting?

I mean I suppose using the black market and Cunning/Streetwise fits my definition of a different way to approach the situation, I guess. 

But why not Coordination - to approach it from a fine-motor skill angle, or Perception - to represent a high attention to detail? Or heck, Lightsaber skill, cuz you gotta know your weapon? Or Coercion if you're a Dark Side user and just bending the crystal to your will?

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To be honest, I don't see any problem with the present setup.  Unless you are playing a Gungan or something else with a 1 starting intellect, you are looking at a GG roll on an average difficulty task for a standard saber hilt.  Now, this is supposed to be one of the benchmark moments for a force user, so why leave it to chance.  

1) make sure you have the right tools and they are freshly calibrated.  There's a bonus die.

2) meditate for a while before hand, feel at one with the force.  There's a bonus die.

3) Flip a destiny point.

Now you are at YGBB on an average roll.  If you REALLY want that defensive hilt, then pick up a rank in mechanics for 10 xp.  You will probably find other uses for it along the way.

Also, maybe a quest for a holocron or an ancient text on lightsaber crafting is in order.  That would be worth anything from a bonus die to a straight upgrade of the roll.  In that situation you are looking at a character with 2 Int and 1 mechanics having a dice pool of YYGBB against average difficulty (hard for a guard shoto).  I'll take those odds.

In fact, I would argue that this process is even better for character development.  You really have to work to maximize your chances, as opposed to the Cerean artisan how can just slap standard hilts together in their spare time.

Edit: another alternative is to work with the GM to create a talent that lets you use a different dice pool to craft a saber. For something of such limited application I wouldn't say it would be more than 5 xp.

Edited by FatherTurin

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36 minutes ago, emsquared said:

This system does a great job of giving different ways to approach things - like the different ways to repair system Strain for example, and the flexibility built in to Force checks vs. PCs/Adversaries/Nemesies - but not so with Lightsaber crafting. INT-linked Skills only. People have been hinting at this "problem" above.

I wanted to craft a LS with my PC, but she has nothing to do with Lore or Mechanics so I just bought a hilt and am "making do" with my un-modded crystal. Luckily she's Cunning and rolled very well (5 Successes) on her Streetwise and found exactly what she wanted for the hilt - Guard Hilt Shoto w/ a Curved Hilt mod >:D

But anyway, I still felt a little robbed of that IC experience because it wasn't mechanically viable.

Has anyone explored the idea of non-INT-based LS crafting?

I mean I suppose using the black market and Cunning/Streetwise fits my definition of a different way to approach the situation, I guess. 

But why not Coordination - to approach it from a fine-motor skill angle, or Perception - to represent a high attention to detail? Or heck, Lightsaber skill, cuz you gotta know your weapon? Or Coercion if you're a Dark Side user and just bending the crystal to your will?

Knowing how to use a sword or even recognizing what makes a sword a great  does not make a guy a blacksmith. Perception might let you notice all the different parts and how they link together when you raise the hood of a car, but that doesn't mean you can put an engine together from scratch. Fine motor precision is helpful for following a template or working in a factory, but not creating something that's yours

 

It's an average or hard check. Nothing a session's worth of XP, some tools and a destiny point can't fix for even a 1 intelligence character. A Jedi(or Sith for that matter) is expected to be diverse enough to handle a myriad of situations. Just look at the Jedi Trials in Nexus of Power. Having a character spend some xp to shoulder up a weaker skill that isn't a focus because they need to is not a system flaw, it's an opportunity for character growth and development.

 

I have a pilot in a game I GM who has started pouring ranks into medicine because he tried to bandage a woman and failed on a simple check like three times and he decided his character couldn't stand seeing people in pain like that. If crafting your own lightsaber is important to your character 15 or 20 xp into mechanics shouldn't seem like an obstacle. 

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46 minutes ago, Valik said:

Knowing how to use a sword or even recognizing what makes a sword a great  does not make a guy a blacksmith. Perception might let you notice all the different parts and how they link together when you raise the hood of a car, but that doesn't mean you can put an engine together from scratch. Fine motor precision is helpful for following a template or working in a factory, but not creating something that's yours

But it makes sense that an Athletic person can make Manual Repairs knowing nothing about a ship? Same tenuous type of link. There is definitely precedence in the mechanics to take "alternate approaches".

Its one of my favorite aspects of the system - it's flexibility.

Especially using something like Coercion for a Dark Sider to mod a crystal syncs perfectly with the fluff. Or even a Light Sider if they're willing to take some (a bunch?) of Conflict for it?

Point well taken about Coordination and Perception, lacking "on their own". But perhaps a check could be made for a Boost die to the Mechanics/Lore?

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Building a basic hilt is pretty darn easy.  It's not like you only have one shot at it. Sure, you might screw it up. Get some more scraps together and give it another go.

Modding the crystal can get difficult, but remember that you can add your Force Dice. If you're not skilled at mechanics or versed in Jedi Lore, well, maybe you should go slow and bump that Force Rating up before trying the tough stuff.

If you really want the sickest saber on the block, then you should roll an Artisan. 

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Yea, I'm not really into the "Feat Tax" thing.

Of course it is present in droves in this system - with all the marginal Talents scattered through Specs, but with something as signature to the series and image of the Jedi/Force User as the LS, I think it's worth it to take measures to let your players have/do something cool and specific to them.

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On 3/28/2017 at 9:42 AM, emsquared said:

Or heck, Lightsaber skill, cuz you gotta know your weapon?

I like this, and I think I'm going to adopt it (for a total of Mechanics, Lore, or Lightsaber) -- specifically, because it ties into the alternate-stat Lightsaber talents, potentially allowing a character to use the same stat that they focus on for combat (which is what lightsabers are for). This works doubly well for my group, I think, because we're in an Old Republic setting where I encourage everyone to at least strongly consider taking at least one lightsaber combat spec.

I think this makes perfect sense, given the holistic way Jedi tend to view their lightsabers and incorporate them so heavily into their philosophy and disciplines. Sure, Ranged (Light) shouldn't necessarily let you build a blaster pistol, but Lightsaber is kind of a special combat skill that focuses on a very specific subset of mystical weapons which are crafted through relatively mystical means -- not as clumsy or random as a blaster, after all!

So, whether you are a mystically-inclined Consular, mechanically-inclined Sentinel, or combat-inclined Guardian (to use the classic RPG categories), you have a viable and sensible means toward crafting a mystical weapon attuned to you.

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