Jump to content
MenaceNsobriety

What about Biggs?

Recommended Posts

Same arguments for not nerfing Biggs are the same as Palp... Palp has not been winning much lately, but he is always in the back ground for list building. It is exactly the same reason. He should be relooked at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LunarSol said:

In this case you're essentially talking about the same thing.  The implementation of Ordinance as an expensive, once per game attack with a significant opportunity cost IS the concept that it was all designed around and that is, inherently, flawed.

That, and anything which can do meaningful damage to, say, the Outrider can obliterate a Z-95. Which means that when ordnance is good, it starts to chase a whole lot of stuff off the tables.

Ideally, we'd have Torpedos that did a lot of damage to Large ships, but had a small chance to actually hit Small ships.

Similarly: missiles that did small, but guaranteed damage or status effects. Think Ion or Advanced Homing missiles, but cheaper and more likely to hit a tokened up Soontir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

Biggs was included in the original core set, so we now have had 10 waves since that release and in your opinion ships since that have been scaled back because of him? Is that what you're really saying?

Here are some examples of ships since Wave 1 that are still viable if not late game aces (and some of those pilots have seen success at the higher levels of the META) that are Rebel and not affected by Biggs in either way. Norra Wexley, Rey, Miranda Doni, Dash Rendar, Han Solo, Corran Horn, Poe Dameron, and Kanan Jarrus (who wingman is Biggs but doesn't need it) Making it "once per round" forces the person using him to fly better, and actually use strategy. Isn't this game about manuevrablity and tatics?

You put Norra Wexley in that list, so imma assume you don't really fly ARC-170s a lot.

Norra Wexley gets blitzed turn 1 without Biggs. Every time. Fenn Rau wrecks her ****. She may not die turn 1, but once she has damage cards on her it's an uphill battle, and 1 agility ships know how to do nothing better than take damage. Take C-3P0, and, hey, your rear arc sucks, so you can't do THAT and expect to be offensively useful for most of the game. The ARC-170 is one such ship that was intentionally scaled back to not be OP with Biggs.

Considering i've flown nothing but ARCs since they dropped, trust me when i say Biggs might as well be stapled to the ARC-170 cards.

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

You put Norra Wexley in that list, so imma assume you don't really fly ARC-170s a lot.

Norra Wexley gets blitzed turn 1 without Biggs. Every time. 

Considering i've flown nothing but ARCs since they dropped, trust me when i say Biggs might as well be stapled to the ARC-170 cards.

Your assumption would be incorrect. I run Rey and Norra almost exclusively except for casual games where I'm play testing other squads. Nowhere in my list is Biggs even a thought. In fact the only time I use Biggs is in the TLT spamming Kanan - Biggs build which I think I've only used about five times. I hate TLTs and think their under cost for the damage output so I don't use them. 

Norra (C-3PO, R2D2, Vectored Thrusters, Alliance Overhaul PTL)

Rey (Finn, Kanan, Expertise, Smuggling Compartment, Burnout Slam)

I just won my 5 week store league with a record of 9-1 with this list, I think I am pretty versed in Norra's ability without Biggs. Norra and Rey are my 2 favorite pilots/ships and since HoTR I've flown this list almost exclusively. 75% of all my games.

Edited by Cgriffith
spelling and clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

You put Norra Wexley in that list, so imma assume you don't really fly ARC-170s a lot.

Norra Wexley gets blitzed turn 1 without Biggs. Every time. Fenn Rau wrecks her ****. She may not die turn 1, but once she has damage cards on her it's an uphill battle, and 1 agility ships know how to do nothing better than take damage. Take C-3P0, and, hey, your rear arc sucks, so you can't do THAT and expect to be offensively useful for most of the game. The ARC-170 is one such ship that was intentionally scaled back to not be OP with Biggs.

Considering i've flown nothing but ARCs since they dropped, trust me when i say Biggs might as well be stapled to the ARC-170 cards.

I've flown norra quite a bit in several lists and not once have I ever had Biggs with her. Rey Norra has been a popular combo with a couple other local players as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

ok i always forget about Rey Norra but the reality is that Rey is the priority target, not Norra, which is why it works

in any list where Norra is the biggest threat, without Biggs she's gone like, turn 2

Not hard to have 2 big threats.  I've also not run the aforementioned Rey/norra build. Most of my games have been Rey with a titled lothal rebel or triple arc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

ok i always forget about Rey Norra but the reality is that Rey is the priority target, not Norra, which is why it works

in any list where Norra is the biggest threat, without Biggs she's gone like, turn 2

Everyone I play hates when Norra is on the board; they want her dead first because of her regen ability and late game effectiveness; Rey is not always priority one Rey can't regen, flip or modify the one green obviously Finn can add one in arc but there green dice and not dependable. What you experience in your area can be completely different from my area. Norra's abilty to modify into 3 evades possibly is a bigger threat in my opinion than Rey and Finn especially if their not in arc.

Edited by Cgriffith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm gonna be honest.

I don't understand the way people talk about Biggs as this huge menace. The guy has a strong ability, but he has never warped the game in the same way many other ships have, nor is he the type of ship that leads to boring or unfun games. With all the hype, you'd think Integrated Astromech would have broken X-Wing and not the Jumpmaster 5000. 

He's not even comparable to Palpatine. Palpatine was for much time an auto-include in Imperial Lists because he was so good. Biggs was an auto-include in Rebel lists at one recent point too... Because they literally couldn't function without him against triple Jumpmaster lists. 

Edited by WingedSpider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add my own experiences with Norra and Biggs: I agree with Ragrizz, without Biggs she dies very quickly. With Biggs she generally gets to be an end-game terror.

When I've tried her with Rey (or Han), she gets focused down immediately and struggles to get away unless she is built with BB8 and Kyle. In which case she can't regen and isn't as effective as a finisher - so she needs Rey to live long enough to do most of the damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, WingedSpider said:

I'm gonna be honest.

I don't understand the way people talk about Biggs as this huge menace. The guy has a strong ability, but he has never warped the game in the same way many other ships have, nor is he the type of ship that leads to boring or unfun games. With all the hype, you'd think Integrated Astromech would have broken X-Wing and not the Jumpmaster 5000. 

He's not even comparable to Palpatine. Palpatine was for much time an auto-include in Imperial Lists because he was so good. Biggs was an auto-include in Rebel lists at one recent point too... Because they literally couldn't function without him against triple Jumpmaster lists. 

Because when you think up a rebel list, one of the questions I ask myself is:

"Would this be better with Biggs?"

The same way went pre-faq with:

"Would this be better with a Palpshuttle?" (For an imperial ace list)

"Would this be better with manaroo/attani combo?" (For a scum 3+ ship list)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, LunarSol said:

In this case you're essentially talking about the same thing.  The implementation of Ordinance as an expensive, once per game attack with a significant opportunity cost IS the concept that it was all designed around and that is, inherently, flawed.

I actually think the core of the issue is the oddity of the 360 degree target lock.  It's never worked like people expect from watching Episode IV and is kind of core to what doesn't work with Ordinance.  I think if Target locks were more about keeping a ship in your firing arc (something we've learned the game needs to reward) it would make more sense for Ordinance to be a low cost, difficult to perform attack.

It's one of my favorite "complete redesign" concepts, but with the way it works in the game as is its pretty doomed to be a problematic mechanic in the game.

 

I'm deliberately not equating them. The concept of ordnance in the game is excellent, thematic, and in many ways an inevitable part of it. Damage spikes exist in most games of this sort, and in their video game equivalents. Primary weapons are your mainstay, but it's the spike that lets you take advantage of a situation.

The flaw, as I see it, is twofold. Firstly, in how far telegraphed the set up is for these attacks. An ordnance capable craft, as opposed to an ordnance dedicated craft, can take as many as two turns - in an ideal placement scenario - to set up a torpedo/missile shot. An ordnance dedicated craft may take the same, but will find it easier to set up, thanks to LRS. Some, like Gamma Vets, benefit from being able to take Deadeye.

This delay not only hurts action efficiency, but also firing efficiency, given that most savvy players will use that time to simply get out of arc, negating the shot. Only the locked target needs to get out of arc, remember, so it's not difficult to do.

The second flaw is the costing. You could drop a point off pretty much every ordnance in the game, and you'd still struggle to want to fit them on anything but a dedicated ordnance build. When was the last time you saw an X-wing with a torpedo, or an A-wing with anything other than Chardaan Refit? I remember once seeing Vessery with Cluster Missiles, and it was such an oddity I remember it vividly years later. These ships, thematically, were terrors with ordnance, but in the game they're never used, simply due to the cost. I think that's a shame.

 

8 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

That, and anything which can do meaningful damage to, say, the Outrider can obliterate a Z-95. Which means that when ordnance is good, it starts to chase a whole lot of stuff off the tables.

Ideally, we'd have Torpedos that did a lot of damage to Large ships, but had a small chance to actually hit Small ships.

Similarly: missiles that did small, but guaranteed damage or status effects. Think Ion or Advanced Homing missiles, but cheaper and more likely to hit a tokened up Soontir.

This is where I feel like there are two ordnance cards that hit the mark (no pun intended): Homing Missiles and Plasma Torpedoes. HM does a great job of being able to push damage through on otherwise tokened up, high agility ships. Not requiring the lock to be spent, and being able to ignore evade tokens, it has a great chance of being able to push through two damage fairly reliably. Plasmas do a fine job against large base, and low agility ships. Against something like the Lancer or Jumpmaser - the large base ships du jour - even a perfect defensive roll is likely to result in 2-3 shields being stripped. However, against a small ship, that extra shield stripping effect is less likely to come into play, and is certainly less valuable. It suffers greatly against small unshielded, or single shield ships like Protectorate starfighters or TIE/fo.

Personally, I'd love to see an ordnance type that buffs based on the target. For example, a 2 point torpedo that requires you have a focus (a lá Proton Rockets) with 3 attack at R2, but that adds a die against large base ships. At 3 attack, the better option for many potential carriers against small ships is to use primaries, but an extra die against a large ship can make all the difference in pushing damage through. 

There's plenty of scope for interesting interactions here, but I feel like they're all getting kicked to one side in favour of ways of being more defensive, rather than aggressive. 

 

 

ANYWAY, I've diverted quite a distance away from the topic of Biggs in that. Apologies, I just feel like ordnance is a good way around him without needing to nerf him in any way.
That said, if you really wanted to give him a gentle nerf, simply reword the ability to include "if not stressed". T-65s aren't known for having the best dial, and there's plenty of stress mechanics that could simply switch him off in that instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree with most of your assessment, let me say that also prockets are really good on vader or TAPs. also the assault missile and ion torpedo as well as seismics rock in epic. So do proton torpedos and concussions. The problem with ordnance is in the 100/6 format. With more targets and especially more low ps targets on the board, ordnance really shines. So I wouldn't like to see an ordnance buff that works on dedicated vessels (except on the poor punisher), lest that epic gets a fiery hell. My playgroup usually plays 150 points and even ther ordnance is very viable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, wurms said:

Biggs got nerfed a bit last time letting ordnance bypass him. And he isn't exactly bringing home the trophies.

One problem with nerfing biggs to like a "Once per round" or "Suffer all damage" is that EVERY single rebel ship was probably built with Biggs in mind. So you would be left with 1 and 2 agility ships for rebels that were probably built with 1 agility because of Biggs, like the Arc. Breaking biggs, breaks the faction. Have to tread carefully there. Lancers and Jumpmasters are 9/10 hull with 2 agility and an arc is 1, huh? Biggs fault!

Yep! Gotta be careful when changing Biggs. This so true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree, Biggs is and has always been fine.

Emperor, X7 and Manaroo were winning literally everything, and the nerfs were well deserved, they destroyed game diversity!

Biggs was never in that situation. He is played, but he is very far away from being in all rebel lists, and even less did Biggs lists win tournaments at a rate that manaroo/Emperor did.

If we see now that he becomes utterly dominant, the situation might change, but else i see no reason at all to change Biggs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I don't think once-per-round would really help anything.  Good Biggs play is already about splitting fire (generally).  Any Biggs list I come up against he becomes priority #1 just by existing, even if I don't HAVE to shoot him, because a single shot at a regenerator might as well be a wasted turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ImperialPropaganda said:

Because when you think up a rebel list, one of the questions I ask myself is:

"Would this be better with Biggs?"

The same way went pre-faq with:

"Would this be better with a Palpshuttle?" (For an imperial ace list)

"Would this be better with manaroo/attani combo?" (For a scum 3+ ship list)

That's not really true though. Look at the top Rebel lists pre-FAQ; Miranda/Dash doesn't use Biggs, triple K-Wings doesn't use Biggs. And unlike Palpatine, there hasn't really been a time where people were asking "Would this be better with Biggs?" Worlds 2015 and 2016 had plenty of Rebel lists, most without Biggs. Even with U-Boats, it wasn't "Would this be better with Biggs", it was "Can this actually survive without Biggs?"

Edited by WingedSpider

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/3/2017 at 1:32 AM, WingedSpider said:

That's not really true though. Look at the top Rebel lists pre-FAQ; Miranda/Dash doesn't use Biggs, triple K-Wings doesn't use Biggs. And unlike Palpatine, there hasn't really been a time where people were asking "Would this be better with Biggs?" Worlds 2015 and 2016 had plenty of Rebel lists, most without Biggs. Even with U-Boats, it wasn't "Would this be better with Biggs", it was "Can this actually survive without Biggs?"

Yeah, you are right. I made an all-encompassing statement. Biggs is not always a good options in rebel lists.

A MiranDash list doesn't need biggs because they are both ships which gain value from not getting shot at / being diffucult to predict (dash/adv.slam shenanigans)

Triple k-wings ideally need to converge or otherwise being 'far' from each other.

 

Biggs' value is in a standard jousting list (where he turtles) or when paired with low agility ships (to tank).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...