Dodonna and the All Out Offensive

[Jukey 1,257]

One of the guys in my CC noticed this and now I'm curious. Dodonna effects crits dealt to the opponent, and has no text requiring 'friendly', so my question is, does Dodonna apply to all crits dealt by any fleet to the opponent in the all out offensive? 

Our thinking was yes, he does, on the subject.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Yup. The only one that's effectively fleet-wide.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

I was willing to say that Dodona would work only when their fleet deals the damage (as RAI) but then I remembered Dodona works on crits from obstacles so no idea.

The RAW says yes it works every time no matter the source of damage.

In fact I see that my app has an errata. The card image is right but the wording say "while a friendly ship is attacking" what is not what the card says. 

[Ginkapo 9,321]

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yup. The only one that's effectively fleet-wide.

Konstantine....

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

12 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Konstantine....

I think not. The medium-large ship of konstantin must be friendly and this is a friendly from a commander.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

20 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Konstantine....

Fleet-wide, as in, your whole team.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

21 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Fleet-wide, as in, your whole team.

Dodonna affects THEIR whole team.

Konstantine affects THEIR whole team

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

I think here is some kind of misunderstanding. 

Dodona works even when a ship of a team-mate is attacking. So in some way is like every rebel player go with him.

Only the ships of the Konstantin's fleet could trigger konstantin's skill.

Konstantin cannot change the speed of a ship at distance 1-5 of Vader's ISDs. Dodona can look the top 4 damage card when is Ackbar's MC80 what is dealing the faceup damage card. 

[Ginkapo 9,321]

9 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I think here is some kind of misunderstanding. 

Dodona works even when a ship of a team-mate is attacking. So in some way is like every rebel player go with him.

Only the ships of the Konstantin's fleet could trigger konstantin's skill.

Konstantin cannot change the speed of a ship at distance 1-5 of Vader's ISDs. Dodona can look the top 4 damage card when is Ackbar's MC80 what is dealing the faceup damage card. 

I understand you perfectly. It is however just as simple to leverage Konstantine against the whole enemy team... 

[Gowtah 196]

The rule says they're considered allies and that a commanders "ally" effect can only be resolved by his own ships/squads.

However, Konstantin's effect isn't resolved directly by ally ships, it's an effect resolved in itself for any enemy ship in range of two ally med/lrg ships.

So it could indeed be argued that you can change the speed of a ship at distance 1-5 of two vader ISDs.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Gowtah

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

No it couldn't. Konstantine is worded exactly the same as every other commander except Dodonna.

Gink is just saying that Konstantine's ships affect the entirety of the other fleet. Which is true, but just a different way of looking at the same thing.

[Gowtah 196]

Well, not exactly, besides the card showing the word "ally."

K's effect isn't technically resolved by an ally ship. The card is also a rare instance where 'you' doesn't refer to a figurine.

Is K's effect an ally effect? Or is it like Dodonna an enemy effect resolved when in range of ally ships?

I might also be theorizing from a poor translation of the English booklet. If the sentence in English is something like "ally ships and squadrons from other players aren't allies for the purpose of resolving the commanders effects" then it's all good. If it's something like "the ally effect of a commander can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of this player's fleet", then there's a hole and ground for argument .

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

24 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Well, not exactly, besides the card showing the word "ally."

K's effect isn't technically resolved by an ally ship. The card is also a rare instance where 'you' doesn't refer to a figurine.

Is K's effect an ally effect? Or is it like Dodonna an enemy effect resolved when in range of ally ships?

I might also be theorizing from a poor translation of the English booklet. If the sentence in English is something like "ally ships and squadrons from other players aren't allies for the purpose of resolving the commanders effects" then it's all good. If it's something like "the ally effect of a commander can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of this player's fleet", then there's a hole and ground for argument .

Ships and squadrons from a player's fleet count ships and squadrons from other players' fleets on the same team as friendly, with one exception: a commander's "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player's fleet.

On upgrade card effects, the term “you” refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to.

There is no ambiguity. Konstantine's "friendly" effect triggers when two or more of his own fleet's ships are distance 1-5 of the target ship in question. The target ship's speed is then altered by Konstantine's flagship.

Contrast this to Dodonna:

who says nothing at all about friendly ships and, indeed, precedent has shown that he is not intended to be restricted to friendly ships' effects, since he triggers on things like asteroid overlaps and minefields.

[Gowtah 196]

Yeah, I'm not arguing Dodonna.

In our example, are Vader's ISD friendly ships? Yes, per first part of the CC rule.

Are they resolving anything? No, "The target ship's speed is then altered by Konstantine's flagship."

How does applying Konstantine's effect breach the second part of the CC rule?

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

21 minutes ago, Gowtah said:

Yeah, I'm not arguing Dodonna.

In our example, are Vader's ISD friendly ships? Yes, per first part of the CC rule.

Are they resolving anything? No, "The target ship's speed is then altered by Konstantine's flagship."

How does applying Konstantine's effect breach the second part of the CC rule?

It is as easy as Vader's ships ARE NOT friendly for any purpose related with Konstantin skill.

The friendly word of commanders cards point to this commander's ships, not to ally's ship.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

"a commanders "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player;s fleet"

[Gowtah 196]

6 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It is as easy as Vader's ships ARE NOT friendly for any purpose related with Konstantin skill.

The friendly word of commanders cards point to this commander's ships, not to ally's ship.

But, but, that isn't what the rule says.

Quote

Ships and squadrons from a player's fleet count ships and squadrons from other players' fleets on the same team as friendly, with one exception: a commander's "friendly" effect can only be resolved by ships and squadrons of that player's fleet.

What the rule doesn't say is "Friendly ships from other commanders do not count as friendly for the purpose of resolving a commander effect".

Who is resolving Konstantine's effect? Konstantine, or Konstantine's flagship if you want, on the basis of friendly ships being in range. It's not friendly ships themselves.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Gowtah, by that logic, My Garm Assault Frigate is reading Ackbars ability, not Ackbar, so I can use him.

 

 

[Gowtah 196]

Well in that instance, your garm assault frigate is resolving ackbar's effect, so the rule catches it.

In the discussed example, it's always Konstantine himself resolving something onto an enemy ship, not on a friendly ship.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Gowtah

[Jukey 1,257]

Oh look where this all went lol. Konstantine has the keyword of 'friendly' therefore, only that players Fleet benefits from his ability. The ally effect only makes clarification between enemy ships and ships on your side but not in your fleet simpler.

[Gowtah 196]

That's the simplified way we've all been considering this rule to work, yes.

Even if you consider only Konstantine's fleet to benefit from this ability, Konstantine resolving his effect using all friendly ships on the board doesn't breach that idea, as he's the only one benefitting from his own ability.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

Is the Ackbar effect a friendly ship effect or a Ackbar effect?

Does Garm Bel fuel every ship in the team?

Does Motti then give hull to everybody? Is not a ship effect. Is Motti who resolves his effect.

and this with every commander.

Who resolves effects in general?

[Jukey 1,257]

But only the ships in Konstantines fleet are friendly to him and his ability. The other ships are allies, not friendly. otherwise, everything applies to everything.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

EDIT: I agree the cc rule could be better written but I think it is clear enough.

Oops. I missed the text box XD

Edited March 8, 2017 by ovinomanc3r

[Gowtah 196]

Yup, that's the question at stake

In each of those instances, one could argue the ship itself is trying to resolve a friendly effect from an ally general. I.e., when an ally ship is being modified by an ally commander effect, the CC rule kicks in.

For instance Motti is the continuous resolving of the effect by every ship under his control to have extra hull.

Konstantine is different in that no ally ship resolves anything. Konstantine resolves his effect by himself.

By the way, I'm only arguing for the sake of logic (and because I'm supposed to be doing something else), I don't really care about Konstantine working, even though I guess it'd be quite cool.