Possible future errata for Armada?

[FatherTurin 1,818]

As a primarily rebel player who is just now getting into Imperials, I will say this.  Imperial Commanders suck.  There is almost no bad choice in the entirety of the Rebel options, but on the Imperial side really the cost effective options seem to be Motti and Jerjerrod. Everyone else is just kind of inferior to the Rebel Commanders. 

 

Ok, fine, Cracken and Garm aren't great (I actually forgot Cracken existed), and Jerjerrod is FANTASTIC, so maybe things are moving in the right direction.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

In regards to ET, which I meant to address before but got carried away with the crutch that is Demo, what about this:

ET: If you overlap a ship, exhaust this card. "Normal ET wording"

So if you land on an obstacle, you don't get boned with your 8 point investment AND take the damage. It stops the CR90B ET Rieekan nonsense as well, since that fleet is cheesy and pretty much ignores all the rules that make the game so good.

[geek19 6,557]

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

In regards to ET, which I meant to address before but got carried away with the crutch that is Demo, what about this:

ET: If you overlap a ship, exhaust this card. "Normal ET wording"

So if you land on an obstacle, you don't get boned with your 8 point investment AND take the damage. It stops the CR90B ET Rieekan nonsense as well, since that fleet is cheesy and pretty much ignores all the rules that make the game so good.

See, you think it's cheesy, but what if I think it's good? Why can't I run my jank fleet if I have fun doing it? What if we get hammerheads that WANT to ram other ships?

 

Demo consistently can put that final damage into ships through ramming, so I don't think engine techs needs a change based on one regionals win.

[WuFame 1,269]

24 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

As a primarily rebel player who is just now getting into Imperials, I will say this.  Imperial Commanders suck.  There is almost no bad choice in the entirety of the Rebel options, but on the Imperial side really the cost effective options seem to be Motti and Jerjerrod. Everyone else is just kind of inferior to the Rebel Commanders. 

 

Ok, fine, Cracken and Garm aren't great (I actually forgot Cracken existed), and Jerjerrod is FANTASTIC, so maybe things are moving in the right direction.

Cracken is pretty well represented at the top. His buff is pretty solid.

 

I agree with your point though, a lot of Imp commanders are underwhelming.

Edited March 7, 2017 by WuFame

[Undeadguy 5,749]

3 minutes ago, geek19 said:

See, you think it's cheesy, but what if I think it's good? Why can't I run my jank fleet if I have fun doing it? What if we get hammerheads that WANT to ram other ships?

 

Demo consistently can put that final damage into ships through ramming, so I don't think engine techs needs a change based on one regionals win.

I never said it was a bad fleet. It's cheesy because it abuses ramming, which aren't good rules to begin with, and with Rieekan, you have no punishment for ramming. It's a solid fleet, but it circumnavigates a large portion of the strategy of the game, which is maneuvering and lining up shots.

And what if FFG knows the ramming rules suck and doesn't do anything stupid like forcing ships to ram?

Also, you can only have 1 Demo in your fleet. Not 8 undying CR90Bs that run into your face and double arc before hitting you for another UNPREVENTABLE 2 damage. It may be fun for you, but how in the world is it fun for anyone else to play against it? I consider this similar to non-engagement for 6 rounds just to launch your fighters forward to kill something for a 6-5. I don't want to play against it, not because it's hard to beat, but because the game is boring.

That said, I don't think your main focus should be on making sure your opponent is having fun, but rather the fun is derived from the ebb and flow of the game.

[ovinomanc3r 4,436]

I learnt the lesson from Ackbar.

Did you learn the lesson from Ackbar?

There are not overpowered things,  there are underwhelmed imagination.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

54 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

No. Just because you (and others) do not want to dedicate resources to blow up flotillas does not mean you get to table me by blowing up 2 of my 5 ships, ESPECIALLY since those three can still wreak havoc by pushing squads to take out your squads/ships. I made the investment in points, it is up to YOU to figure out how to destroy it, not cry it off the table.

I think that's where we differ on the problem. I get the feeling that the developers don't want the majority of a fleet to be made up of flotillas in the same sense they didn't want people to take no fighters. The meta skews to heavily one way and they will actively fix it. I love armada and this is just a spitball thread. I'm not gonna begrudge you your feelings on the matter.

As to the flotilla not counting as ship for tabling, I think it will provide a real decision for their inclusion. You can still lifeboat, support, BCC, pad activations, and every other little fun thing you like to do but just like fighters you can over invest and pay for it. Hopefully the sentiment changes from "blowing up 2 of my 5 ships" to blowing up 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

13 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I learnt the lesson from Ackbar.

Did you learn the lesson from Ackbar?

There are not overpowered things,  there are underwhelmed imagination.

Very generally, I think that the gamer mindset just tends to work in absolutes since we often try to squeak out every little advantage we can. Because of this, anything that doesn't appear outright powerful or not tend to be sued excessively or chucked in the bin. The best part of Armada is that how something looks on paper is FAR from being the final word if something is good (some upgrade cards excluded). 

[FatherTurin 1,818]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:49 PM, Undeadguy said:

I never said it was a bad fleet. It's cheesy because it abuses ramming, which aren't good rules to begin with, and with Rieekan, you have no punishment for ramming. It's a solid fleet, but it circumnavigates a large portion of the strategy of the game, which is maneuvering and lining up shots.

And what if FFG knows the ramming rules suck and doesn't do anything stupid like forcing ships to ram?

Also, you can only have 1 Demo in your fleet. Not 8 undying CR90Bs that run into your face and double arc before hitting you for another UNPREVENTABLE 2 damage. It may be fun for you, but how in the world is it fun for anyone else to play against it? I consider this similar to non-engagement for 6 rounds just to launch your fighters forward to kill something for a 6-5. I don't want to play against it, not because it's hard to beat, but because the game is boring.

That said, I don't think your main focus should be on making sure your opponent is having fun, but rather the fun is derived from the ebb and flow of the game.

Just having fun :-)

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by FatherTurin

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

20 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

with Rieekan, you have no punishment for ramming

Really? I would definitely have said that your ships blowing up was a pretty good punishment for ramming.

 

22 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

hitting you for another UNPREVENTABLE 2 damage.

Not unpreventable. Hard to prevent, absolutely, but not unpreventable. Outmaneuver them, then kill them... BAM, prevented.

One engine teching CR90B is virtually impossible to outmaneuver. Seven of them that all have to work in concert to succeed is actually not super difficult to outmaneuver.

[FatherTurin 1,818]

Also, if someone is running 7 engine tech CR90s plus a lifeboat, that's....

$410 plus tax (minimum) for a one trick pony "joke" list that will likely get shredded in anything remotely close to a competitive game.  

 

Let them have their fun once, or just concede.  Also, just because of the fact that this kind of list is admittedly a **** move, I would not let them proxy a single **** thing.

[Madaghmire 7,274]

I also hate ram fleets. Keep fighting the good fight undeadguy

[WuFame 1,269]

I think we would all agree the point at which something needs to be adjusted is the point at which it begins to warp the meta. We really saw this with Demo in Wave 2, but I don't necessarily think we're still there with Demo itself. I do remember being extremely wary of the ET-double ram even back then because it was such a powerful punch for Demo to have on top of it's dice rolling capability.

I don't personally know whether or not a list built completely around the ET-ram mechanic has the capability to be meta-warping. I don't know that we have the data yet to conclude one way or another on that. I make a dangerous assumption here, but I think if the data did show it was meta warping, the majority of the community cares enough about the game to agree we should adjust something at that point.

All that aside, my main opinion, which I understand by it's nature is subjective, is that the mechanic itself is just not a fun mechanic and it makes the game look bad to both people outside of the game and inside of the game.

And because this is the FFG forums, let me reiterate my comments in the Battle Report thread. I have literally no problem with someone taking advantage of a legal mechanic present in the game while simultaneously saying that they believe the mechanic should be adjusted. There's no hypocrisy in that. I literally almost brought a ramstrocity list to MD myself even while having all these same opinions.

It's just an unfun mechanic, and that's never been an issue in the past. But now it's an unfun mechanic that has the capability, at least, of being competitive. Do we REALLY want Armada to be Space Demolition Derby? I personally say no.

My conclusion to these thoughts is that ET should be adjusted now, before it becomes meta warping, and I think that Green Knight's suggestion is the most elegant way to do it. ET exhausts when you overlap a ship.

Edited March 7, 2017 by WuFame

[FatherTurin 1,818]

If you ram a ship of the same size or larger, take a damage card.  Problem solved.  Also allows some design space for the hammerhead to have some ramming tech as a fun option (probably as the Lightbringer title only).

 

Edit: to make it more clear, change the wording on overlapping.  RRG, p. 8, second paragraph, change last sentence to: "Then, if the first ship overlapped was the same size or larger than the ship that moved, deal one facedown damage card to the ship that moved.  If the ship that moved was the same size or larger than than the first ship overlapped, deal one facedown damage card to the first ship overlapped."

 

It runs the risk of making large ships ram machines, but you already are paying a price premium.  Also, an ISD should be able to plow through a CR-90 with little more than a scratched fender.  If a tank runs over my Nissan Versa, I'm dead and the tank doesn't care.

Edited March 7, 2017 by FatherTurin

[WuFame 1,269]

I don't even have a problem with RAMMING. Ramming is fine how it is. I'm specifically talking about Engine Tech double rams and so is Undeadguy.

Edited March 7, 2017 by WuFame

[Madaghmire 7,274]

3 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I think we would all agree the point at which something needs to be adjusted is the point at which it begins to warp the meta. We really saw this with Demo in Wave 2, but I don't necessarily think we're still there with Demo itself. I do remember being extremely wary of the ET-double ram even back then because it was such a powerful punch for Demo to have on top of it's dice rolling capability.

I don't personally know whether or not a list built completely around the ET-ram mechanic has the capability to be meta-warping. I don't know that we have the data yet to conclude one way or another on that. I make a dangerous assumption here, but I think if the data did show it was meta warping, the majority of the community cares enough about the game to agree we should adjust something at that point.

All that aside, my main opinion, which I understand by it's nature is subjective, is that the mechanic itself is just not a fun mechanic and it makes the game look bad to both people outside of the game and inside of the game.

And because this is the FFG forums, let me reiterate my comments in the Battle Report thread. I have literally no problem with someone taking advantage of a legal mechanic present in the game while simultaneously saying that they believe the mechanic should be adjusted. There's no hypocrisy in that. I literally almost brought a ramstrocity list to MD myself even while having all these same opinions.

It's just an unfun mechanic, and that's never been an issue in the past. But now it's a dumb mechanic that has the capability, at least, of being competitive. Do we REALLY want Armada to be Space Demolition Derby? I personally say no.

My conclusion to these is that ET should be adjusted now, before it becomes meta warping, and I think that Green Knight's suggestion is the most elegant way to do it. ET exhausts when you overlap a ship.

Someone isnt paying attention. The point at which something needs to be adjusted is the point at which I cannot beat it all of the times.

Rest of the post is fine.

[WuFame 1,269]

Haha. Word.

[Drasnighta 26,831]

18 Months.

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

On rereading, I over-hyperbolized. It's definitely not EASY to outmaneuver the rammers. But it's not impossible. I used bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home.

[MandalorianMoose 1,862]

21 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

I think that's where we differ on the problem. I get the feeling that the developers don't want the majority of a fleet to be made up of flotillas in the same sense they didn't want people to take no fighters. The meta skews to heavily one way and they will actively fix it. I love armada and this is just a spitball thread. I'm not gonna begrudge you your feelings on the matter.

As to the flotilla not counting as ship for tabling, I think it will provide a real decision for their inclusion. You can still lifeboat, support, BCC, pad activations, and every other little fun thing you like to do but just like fighters you can over invest and pay for it. Hopefully the sentiment changes from "blowing up 2 of my 5 ships" to blowing up 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5.

I agree they will do something to show larger  ships some love, but this will most likely be done through upgrades (activation delay, more efficient use of defense tokens, etc), rather than such a drastic errata. The German national champion runs an 8- gozanti fleet with a Rhymer-ball. Do you just auto-table him turn 1 when you get paired up with him?

The squadron thing makes sense, as (most) squadrons can't survive deep space without a support ship/base to supply them (fuel, food, the ability to move around). However transports excel at this, and are indeed often used AS the squadron escorts. But they are still ships... 

[Madaghmire 7,274]

5 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

The German national champion runs an 8- gozanti fleet with a Rhymer-ball. Do you just auto-table him turn 1 when you get paired up with him?

Lol!

Yes.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

2 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

I agree they will do something to show larger  ships some love, but this will most likely be done through upgrades (activation delay, more efficient use of defense tokens, etc), rather than such a drastic errata. The German national champion runs an 8- gozanti fleet with a Rhymer-ball. Do you just auto-table him turn 1 when you get paired up with him?

The squadron thing makes sense, as (most) squadrons can't survive deep space without a support ship/base to supply them (fuel, food, the ability to move around). However transports excel at this, and are indeed often used AS the squadron escorts. But they are still ships... 

FFG will do what they do, whether it's drastic or not doesn't seem to matter and we are all kind of along for the ride. See what they've done to X-Wing.  While some people hate it I like the fact that FFG is actively trying to keep their game healthy which means to me that nothing is ever off the table.

As for making sense, that all kind of depend how far you really want to push a narrative a certain way. A climactic battle involving only transports may not be very climactic. I tend to disagree that transports should be escorting fighters instead of the other way around, but to each their own. 

[WuFame 1,269]

I would absolutely wreck that fleet.

[ImpStarDeuces 526]

Just now, Madaghmire said:

Lol!

Yes.

You beat me to the short and sweet answer. If all the fleets turned into 8 flotilla battles or its the most powerful build, I don't doubt FFG would put a stop to that.

[WuFame 1,269]

Again. Meta warping. It has nothing to do with whether or not something is counterable or OP. If something becomes meta warping, it has to be adjusted. The game can't devolve into the Strategy A and counter to Strategy A.