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Green Knight

Possible future errata for Armada?

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I just had a look at the most recent X-wing FAQ.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/3/6/bringing-balance-to-the-force/

And it turns out that 4 popular cards (Palpatine, Manaroo, Defender x7, Zukuss) got errata-nerfed. 

Granted, we have a couple of erratas (literally a couple: Most Wanted and Jamming Field) in Armada as well, but we've never seen much in the way of game-balancing by way of errata (possible exception for XI7/AP interaction).

So this got me thinking: will we ever see Armada errata aimed at nerfirng - or boosting - overused/underused cards?

 

Examples (2 boosts, 2 nerfs):

Cluster Bombs: Every squad at distance 1 of the original target takes 1 damage.

Engine Techs: Gets exhausted if you overlap something.

Ordnance Experts: Only applies when shooting at ships.

Point-defense Reroute: You can reroll any die, not just crits.

 

Not saying I agree with these; they are just examples to get a discussion started.

Edited by Green Knight

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No to OE change, why are you nerfing ship-AA MORE into the ground? 
Also PDR needs much stronger:  Works at any range (close-med), you may reroll one die.
In general _most_ of the ship-AA upgrades are pretty garbage, with exceptions to Kallus

 

Engine Techs I can live with either way.  

--

I still think more elegant fixes would be BCC does not stack (can only use once per activation).  
Ships with green brace and redirects can use them without exhausting them when defending against squadrons.  
 

I have no idea how to make large ships have an easier time vs MSU lists of 6+ though.  
And I still think 5 activations is pretty key in this meta.  

--

On a brighter note, much of the titles could be changed in cost to be worth taking.  =)  
And Interdictor/tractor beam stuff could really use a boost.  

Edited by Blail Blerg

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Yes, there are definitely some older titles that could use a price reduction/boost.

Perhaps is the tractor beam timing was more flexible, it would be more worthwhile. As it is it's only useful in a fleet with Konstantine AND Slicer tools.

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To be honest, I'd like to see Demo been added to tournament ban list. 

It would be nice seeing Gladiators be Gladiators and not Demolishers.

I feel there is a huge restriction on what the devs can do with black dice upgrades (for all slots) in world where Demo exists, removing that worry will open the field.

Then when the next campaign comes out, they can replace it with a different title.

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I think ffg will be playing around with card wording for armada before they go into hard errata. Consider the XI7/AP conflict and the xx-9/fireCT combo fiasco.

X-wing is honestly an elephant game with so many upgrades and rulings that hard erratas are needed to balance the game. I (believe) that ffg is doing forecasting with their future waves of armada and have thus avoided major issues so far. Consider the XI7 boost, many were complaining it was unfair to AP users but now it is overshadowed by the many newer turbolaser options and has thus been relegated to a niche role of damage pusher rather than an auto-include for every ship.

The possibility for hard errata thus comes from: are there any overpowering or overly-used combos in the game? Are there any auto-include pieces that stagnate the game instead of adding variety? 

Btw, not to sound money-minded, but it makes more sense for ffg to NOT boost cards, and instead make new, better stuff in newer expansions(nerfing is another argument)(power creep though, is BAD). Imo, with X-wing though they seem to point cost things in such a way that they are trying to give avenue for older and weaker upgrades to be used, which in the end still aren't, and thus distort the point costing system of upgrades even further.

Edited by Muelmuel

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37 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

To be honest, I'd like to see Demo been added to tournament ban list. 

It would be nice seeing Gladiators be Gladiators and not Demolishers.

I feel there is a huge restriction on what the devs can do with black dice upgrades (for all slots) in world where Demo exists, removing that worry will open the field.

Then when the next campaign comes out, they can replace it with a different title.

How many gladiators did you see without any title? Without title, its not really viable in my opinion, id go for an arq for the same price

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6 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

How many gladiators did you see without any title? Without title, its not really viable in my opinion, id go for an arq for the same price

Firstly, thats my point, you don't (very rarely) see Glads without Demo, and you don't (very rarely) see multi Glad lists.

Secondly, you may prefer the Arquitens to the Glad, but they are such drastically different ships that both have a role to play.

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1. Demolisher is way undercosted.

2. Tagge needs a rework. he telegraphs turns 2 and 4 as "big turns" and that means he is weak even in a specialised fleet.

3. Interdictor needs some love. if one wants "da ultimate in ship support for 100 points" he can just get 4 gozantis for the same price, equal firepower, arguably more staying power(dictor seems tanky until you realise it has 2 "serious" defense tokens and no defensive retrofit slot) and more activations. currently Targeting Scramblers is the only actual good thing it offers. i dont know what they can do. i think they must boost its other experimental retrofits-the fact that they are all so cheap yet they are never considered great means they offere very little to your fleet to actualy include a 'dictor.

4. VSD needs to get 4 red/2 blue or black, not 3/3. this will make gunship VSD viable. it is already viable as a carrier.

 

Rebels:

mc80 Home One version needs a weapons team slot. this will make it more usable with Ackbar (thematic!) and still wont make it overpowered, as it is speed 2, i mean come on, even with engine techs you sacrifice your capability to use squadron/repair commands!

Edited by Kikaze

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There aren't many gross imbalances in the game I think.... but a couple of things could be tweaked to open the game up a bit more and encourage more variety.

Rhymer is very influential in imperial builds. I could stand to see him turned into distance 2, rather than medium range. Either that and/or make him only work on "bombers".

Making Motti only work on medium/large ships would greatly refresh the imperial admiral gene pool I think.

Drop Tarkin in points a bit.

 

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Rhymer needs to be like Hera.  Should affect 2 squads at the start of the phase.  As he stands now you can affect too much.

 

With the demolisher I think it needs to lose 2 dice out of its attack pool when it uses the title ability.  Either that or it can't reroll dice and/or use critical effects.

 

Personally I think those two are the ones that are a little too powerful ATM.

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I think Devastator needs to be retooled entirely, or slash its points significantly.  Right now Vaders personal Star Destroyer doesn't even see use in thematic games its so atrocious!  If rather than discarded defense tokens, it were exhausted defense tokens, it MIGHT see use.  If you could voluntarily exhaust those tokens, it WOULD see use.

I think Rieekan needs looking at, his ability is just too much, I mean destroying a ship is the most central part of this game, and he just says no.  If not outright changed, at least make it only effect ships other than the one hes on, and only WHILE he's alive.

Akbars ability might need restricting to once per ship activation, especially if rebels are going to get (looking to the future) a combat flotilla.  

Rhymer should probably be restricted to only fighters with the bomber keyword (it's both less broken, and more themey.)

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10 out of the top 16 lists at last years worlds for X-Wing used one or more of the nerfed cards.  Yes, a couple "traditional" rebel lists made the cut, as did the Asajj & 2 Thugs list that I'm a fan of.  However, once you get out of the top tier of players, it gets much more difficult to deal with those few cards, and they utterly dominate the field.

 

I can't find a solid list of all the top fleets for Armada, but my understanding was that it was FAR more eclectic.  There are a few cards that need some love to be more viable, and maybe a handful of cards that may need a price adjustment of some kind (not sure how they would do that though, since upgrade cards would need a flat price adjustment and the 'fix' method in X-Wing and IA involves upgrades that give discounts or new abilities).  However, none of the problematic cards in the game are truly broken.  

 

The squadron game is a little stronger than I think I would like.  Same goes for Demolisher (again, just a little too cheap...maybe.  Still not 100% convinced).

 

Maybe it's the fact that X-Wing is older and getting more bloated with upgrades, maybe the Armada team learns from the X-Wing team (for example, I'm pretty sure that every token passing mechanic in Armada is more limited than Manaroo and comes with a range limit from the get go), maybe Armada is just a better game that is harder to break with a handful of cards. I really don't know what the issue is, but the end result is that Armada is in a healthier state than X-Wing was pre-FAQ.

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I only want buffs to existing crap cards:

Cluster Bombs: Every squad at distance 1 of the original target takes 1 damage.  (Love this GK.  This would make CBs a thing)

Point Defense Reroute: While attacking a squadron your crits count as hits. (remove re-roll and at close range.  Make PDR a thing)

Konstantine: 2 friendly ships (instead of two Medium/large.  Although I'm hoping we get a cheaper Quasar Medium ship that will make Kon more viable. Make Konstantine a thing.)

Redundant Shields: cheaper.  (Make tanking more of a thing.)

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3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Engine Techs: Gets exhausted if you overlap something.

This one wouldn't change anything. ET triggers while resolving a navigate command, not after resolving so when you overlap the obstacle the ET must be exhausted or not used at all right?

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Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

I only want buffs to existing crap cards:

Cluster Bombs: Every squad at distance 1 of the original target takes 1 damage.  (Love this GK.  This would make CBs a thing)

Point Defense Reroute: While attacking a squadron your crits count as hits. (remove re-roll and at close range.  Make PDR a thing)

Konstantine: 2 friendly ships (instead of two Medium/large.  Although I'm hoping we get a cheaper Quasar Medium ship that will make Kon more viable. Make Konstantine a thing.)

Redundant Shields: cheaper.  (Make tanking more of a thing.)

Redundant could instead be like RBD, letting you insta-recover 4 shields. 

Problem solved.

(FFG should totally hire me)

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1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

This one wouldn't change anything. ET triggers while resolving a navigate command, not after resolving so when you overlap the obstacle the ET must be exhausted or not used at all right?

"NAV: After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver."

So if the card gets exhausted as part of resolving an overlap, it would already be exhausted by the time you can exhaust it to trigger the effect.

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1 hour ago, Gadgetron said:

I think Devastator needs to be retooled entirely, or slash its points significantly.  Right now Vaders personal Star Destroyer doesn't even see use in thematic games its so atrocious!  If rather than discarded defense tokens, it were exhausted defense tokens, it MIGHT see use.  If you could voluntarily exhaust those tokens, it WOULD see use.

I think Rieekan needs looking at, his ability is just too much, I mean destroying a ship is the most central part of this game, and he just says no.  If not outright changed, at least make it only effect ships other than the one hes on, and only WHILE he's alive.

Akbars ability might need restricting to once per ship activation, especially if rebels are going to get (looking to the future) a combat flotilla.  

Rhymer should probably be restricted to only fighters with the bomber keyword (it's both less broken, and more themey.)

1. devastator is very good with tagge, ISD I with tua and ECM deals frankly ludicrous damage. the real problem is tagge, the defense token admiral, being too niche.

2.  Rieekan is a good admiral, but so is Dodonna , Mon Mothma, or Ackbar. his ability is fine. he does not negate the destruction, he just lets the ship take a turn. the problem is weak admirals like Garm. right now i am much more scared of Dodonna bombers that reduce ISDs to bits and pieces and Mon Mothma mc30 spam that downright shut down my black dice than Rieekan zombies. yes he is "top 4 admiral", but some say not even the best, let alone overpowered.

3.Ackbar is fine. his ability slightly reduces your firepower, as he doesnt let you shoot out the front and every rebel ship has 2+ front dice, but lets you kite your opponent like rebels should play. i think there may be a slight problem with the base assault frigate ship however, and that makes ackbar problematic. still, regionals show ackbar is nothing overpowered against good opponents, in fact just "middle of the pack", below dodonna, rieekan and mon mothma.

4. rhymer is very good, but Norra Wexley is better. imperial full bomber fleets cannot compete with rebel full bomber fleets in terms of raw damage vs ships. let them at least have the threat range advantage, somethings gotta give.

 

I believe most of your concerns are only problematic for casual players. i agree rhymer , rieekan and ackbar destroy "casual fun lists". well, since you are to play casual, you canagree on reasonable matchups. for tournament play, like i said, they are fine.

Edited by Kikaze

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1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

"NAV: After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver."

So if the card gets exhausted as part of resolving an overlap, it would already be exhausted by the time you can exhaust it to trigger the effect.

You are right. I miss that you trigger "while" but you exhausted "after".

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Why so much Demo hate? I can't pull up the huge spreadsheet, but I didn't think it was winning anymore than MC80s or Yavaris (I haven't heard of any big wins with Demo either). If anything, Yavaris can use a nerf so her ability can only be used on squads at close-medium range. Either that or FCT needs to cost more than 3 points.

Here are some other buffs/nerfs I can think of:

Dominator/Redemption - make it cheaper. 12/8 points is very steep for sub-par ships.
Tie/F - 7 points - with all the new squad play, Tie/F die even quicker than before. And now Tie/D and AFFM/FCT means you can't hide      and wait to use them because they either die or you get bombed.
PDR - 3 points - reroll any dice while attacking squads
Redundant Shields - 5/6 points and drop modification
TRC - make it a modification and 8 points
 

Edited by Undeadguy

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1 hour ago, ripper998 said:

If you nerf rhymer then so does Nora.  Also, being able to yavaris across the table is a bit much with relay. 

 

Honestly, wouldn't be against this.  Yavaris probably should be limited to 1 going through relay.

 

Edit:  Also, I wouldn't be against engine techs only activating off navigation commands and not command tokens.

Edited by Lukiki

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"why the demolisher hate": because the demolisher title grants increased threat range to black dice, often bigger than red dice threat range, and black dice  are not designed to have huge threat range. Rhymer, for example, gives LESS threat range to squadrons, and squadrons are designed to have huge threat range(move-shoot), yet he is good. but he adds something to an already good stat.

demolisher turns "black dice are lethal, but shorter range than blue dice" to "black dice are lethal and longer range than red dice". its not OP, but 10 points is way too low.

the fact that it covers for the gladiators' weaknesses doesnt excuse it.

 

I do agree, however, that buffs to weak cards are more important than nerfs to strong cards at this point.

Edited by Kikaze

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