Homebrew timeline: suggestions for spider holdings in the mainland?

[LucaCherstich 27]

I do not care about whatever chronology FFG will use.

I'll use 4th. ed. with my own chronology.

It's about 150 years later than the date in 4th ed. in Core Rules and I kind of stress inter-clan conflicts to get a more "sengoku-like" approach.

I have even have conflicts between a Shogun, a (not so much legitimate) Iweko-Toturi emperor and even a sohei order (supported by rebel peasants) trying to re-surrect the Hantei line from the Otomo.

I always hated the L5R tendency to come up with external supernatural foes which unite clans, I muchh prefer inter-clan and inter-Rokugani conflicts.

By the way, my purpose is to use (or make available) most of the mechanics in 4th edition.

I allowed separation from the colonies through a complicated mystical event which resurrected a Mad Fu-Leng and created a kind of eternal storm/ tornado which blocks sailing routes.

A mongol-like empire appeared in the burning sand in order to close the caravan routes to the colonies.

So now all the game it's just about the Samurai of Rokugan itself, as it was always supposed to be.

 

However, in my own Sengoku-like Rokugan there is just a problem: the Spider.

I like them to exist, practice the foolish Shourido and have a role in the empire, trying to be a shadowed threat in the Imperial Court of Toshi Ranbo.

I cut the ties with the Shadowlands through the resurrection of a mad Fu-Leng (in connection with the eternal storm mentioned above) which now rules the Shadowlands and most of its creatures.

The spider follow Daigotsu but Daigotsu himself is struggling for the control of Jigoku with a mad Fu-Leng.

So, the Spider are still part of the empire but, given that colonies are lost, what holdings do remain to them?

I suppose them to be still a Great Clan in all but in the resources.

"Intrigue" is the only thing which make them survive.

They live through hidden schemes and plots but, without the colonies, they cannot muster as many forces as the Lion or the Crab or the Unicorn do.

But what possible holding can they still have?

These are what I got thus far:

1) Black Silk Castle in Shinomen (re-built)

2) Fingers of Bone (in the Northern Wall Mountains)

3) an embassy in the Imperial Capitol

4) what else?

I cannot give them the ruins of Otosan Uchi since in my timeline it was rebuilt and it is now under the direct protection of the Shogun.

Any other suggestion for possible Spider holding?

 

[cielago 563]

if you don't want to give the Otosan Uchi, which is the most canonically easy place to put them, you could think about closing the second pit and putting them there. If you want to minimize the supernatural threats, having a hole into jigoku in the middle of the empire is a bit of a boondoggle, narratively speaking, so you might as well use it for something. maybe having sealing it be how the spider legitimized their place in the empire X years ago, proof that Daigotsu's loyalty was to Rokugan (so he could someday put his heir on the throne, ostensibly) rather than letting jigoku destroy all of creation, even though he's the lord of it. 

[TheHobgoblyn 196]

Is there any reason the Spider can't be based out of the Shadowlands? Otherwise over-running the Badger/Boar lands would work (unless you want a Ryoshin faction, in which case Badger and Boar ought to be your basis)

Also, in terms of the "Hantei" group, I hope you haven't forgotten about the Seppun, the Miya and the Kasugi, along with the fact that the Seppun bring in the support of the Brotherhood. I think even having the champion of this group be a Seppun might be better than an Otomo.

It is also worth mentioning that a good portion of Rokugan is left pretty unattended. So there are lots of places they could set up without notice. Within the Shinomen forest for example.

Edited March 3, 2017 by TheHobgoblyn

[Shiba Gunichi 2,132]

Or stick 'em back in the Shinomen Mori, balanced on a knife edge between the slumbering Naga empire (whose holdings they give a respectful distance, keeping them out of the heart of the forest) and the divided Rokugan they wish to seize in Daigotsu's name.

[AtoMaki 1,373]

There are also those ex-Chuda lands and the Tower of Fear on the Kaiu Wall. The latter would be especially interesting as a Spider Clan stronghold. Alternatively, you can have them rebuild the City of the Lost. 

[Fumi 286]

There's also Zakyo Toshi. I always thought it was odd that there was a big city in the middle of the Empire that wasn't claimed by any clan, even a Minor one. Might as well let the Spider have it. As a bonus, it's very close to both the Second Pit and the Shinomen Mori, other logical places for the Spider to claim.

[sndwurks 1,223]

I've actually tackled this issue myself in various campaigns. Traditionally, the places I have put the Spider Clan:

1) Otosan Uchi, with the explicit task of "Clean this place up."

2) The sealed Second Pit in the heart of the Scorpion Clan lands.

3) The Dragon Heart Plains, south of the Morito lands.

4) The Twilight Mountains / Shiro Heichi, unless you have allowed for the recreation of the Boar Clan.

The reasoning I have behind this is that the Spider Clan, cut off from the Colonies, will claim any territory that no one else WANTS.

The other method I use?  Make the Spider Clan unable to hold property under themselves by Imperial decree or social tradition. This actually protects them remarkably from the aggression of the other Great Clans. Without land that is their own, you have nothing to attack. This works even better if the Spider Clan works hand in hand with the Imperial Families, and have firmly invested themselves into running the economy of Rokugan as their sole source of income.

The Susumu family becomes, effectively, a less prestigious Imperial family with strong ties to the Otomo through blood and intermarriage. They suffuse the Imperial bureaucracy on all levels save the top, keeping themselves funded through controlling what amounts to the Imperial bank. The Daigotsu family, having forsaken the Taint, are a family of duelists and yojimbo, serving as the sword of the Susumu when needed. The Order of the Spider are monks, and thus occupy the same space as the Togashi family, save as Spider Clan rather than Dragon Clan.

This also works if you give them Otosan Uchi, because the Empire IGNORES the Old Capital's existence as much as possible, as it stands as a glaring sore of how they lost to Daigotusu.

[Togashi Jo 9]

There's the Fingers of Bone, up in the northern mountains north of Unicorn lands. The Fields of the Dead, north of Otosan Uchi.  And The Shadowed Dojo in the Twilight Mountains. 

[LucaCherstich 27]

On 3/3/2017 at 5:25 PM, cielago said:

if you don't want to give the Otosan Uchi, which is the most canonically easy place to put them

As I said, I made it rebuilt and put under Shogun direct control (which will make it a nice parallel to the emperor-ruled Toshi Ranbo).

The Spider had a certain role in purifying the old ruins but giving them the whole city looked like too much for me.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 7:22 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

Is there any reason the Spider can't be based out of the Shadowlands?

 Fu Leng is resurrected as a made entity and he is now pure chaos ruling over the Shadowlands.
Daigotsu and the other Dark Fortunes fight with the mad Fu Leng for the dominion over Jigoku but certainly the Shadowlands are not anymore a welcoming place for the Spider.

I actually like this since the whole "Daigotsu matter" looked to me like an opposite approach to the "Fu leng approach". So the Spider are evil, corrupt, shourido-following and whatever else....but they are Samurai and an important part of the empire.

This separation with everything "chaotic" in Fu Leng/Shadowlands makes the SPider much more interesting for me

On 3/3/2017 at 7:22 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

Also, in terms of the "Hantei" group, I hope you haven't forgotten about the Seppun, the Miya and the Kasugi, along with the fact that the Seppun bring in the support of the Brotherhood. I think even having the champion of this group be a Seppun might be better than an Otomo

Good suggestion! And I kind of found a role for the Seppun...

In my timeline the Iweko line is kind of dissolved after a few tragedies and a (mostly spurious) Iweko-Toturi line reapperead after some Great Clan intrigue to save the empire.

I have a big Otomo villain whose brother tried to take the throne 20 years ago, exploiting his Hantei Ancestry  supported by Monk Orders and a couple of Great Clans who trusted Hantei blood more than spurious Iweko-Toturi blood.

My Otomo villain succeeds betraying his brother for the sake of the Iweko-Toturi dinasty and became the Imperial Chancelor, developing also a rivalry with the Shogun (a scorpion and close friend of the Emperor).

At some point the the Iweko-Toturi emperor got really sick and on his deathbed he proclaims the Otomo villain to be the "Kampaku" (a legal tutor) of the Imperial heir which is too young (5 years old) to rule (I got inspired by the story of Hideyoshi).

This means that the Otomo Kampaku, acting like a legal Tutor, is the de facto emperor.

In this way his Seppun allies can help in re-tying the links with the Brotherhood Sensei and with the most religious clans, like Phoenix and Crane.

And in the long run, when the young emperor will (maybe?) die the Seppun can help re-establishing the sanctity of a renewed Hantei line in opposition to the spurious Iweko-Toturi.

In the meanwhile the Scorpion Shogun is busy on the western border fighting against Gaijin with his Crab and Unicorn allies....

You can imagine that all of this is start of serious civil war, with a western alliance of clans (pro-Shogun) VS a eastern alliance of clans (pro-Kampaku).

On 3/3/2017 at 7:22 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

and the Kasugi..

Who are the Kasugi? Sorry I do not remember them!

23 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

There are also those ex-Chuda lands and the Tower of Fear on the Kaiu Wall. The latter would be especially interesting as a Spider Clan stronghold. Alternatively, you can have them rebuild the City of the Lost. 

Ex-Chuda is still Morito lands in my timeline! Tower of Fear is purified and under Crab rule and the SPider cannot access city of the lost since the pro-Fu Leng Shadowlands disdain them as a pro-Daigotsu clan.

 

12 hours ago, Fumi said:

There's also Zakyo Toshi. I always thought it was odd that there was a big city in the middle of the Empire that wasn't claimed by any clan, even a Minor one. Might as well let the Spider have it. As a bonus, it's very close to both the Second Pit and the Shinomen Mori, other logical places for the Spider to claim.

Good suggestion! Unfortunately I already made Zakyo Toshi an important protected centre in the west under the direct control of the Shogun for co-hordinating efforts on the western borders of the empire against external threats coming from Crab and Unicorn borders.ù

52 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

2) The sealed Second Pit in the heart of the Scorpion Clan lands.

 Any suggestion for sealing it?

53 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

The other method I use?  Make the Spider Clan unable to hold property under themselves by Imperial decree or social tradition. This actually protects them remarkably from the aggression of the other Great Clans. Without land that is their own, you have nothing to attack. This works even better if the Spider Clan works hand in hand with the Imperial Families, and have firmly invested themselves into running the economy of Rokugan as their sole source of income.

The Susumu family becomes, effectively, a less prestigious Imperial family with strong ties to the Otomo through blood and intermarriage. They suffuse the Imperial bureaucracy on all levels save the top, keeping themselves funded through controlling what amounts to the Imperial bank. The Daigotsu family, having forsaken the Taint, are a family of duelists and yojimbo, serving as the sword of the Susumu when needed. The Order of the Spider are monks, and thus occupy the same space as the Togashi family, save as Spider Clan rather than Dragon Clan.

That's the greatest and most interesting suggestion I see for the SPider!!

It's generally against most of my other approaches, but thank you for giving me reasons for thinking about it!

[TheHobgoblyn 196]

13 minutes ago, LucaCherstich said:

Who are the Kasugi? Sorry I do not remember them!

Sorry, Kasuga. I.e. Tortoise clan. Whenever the Hantei are, they are likely helping with any sort of under-the-table work. They are practically a disavowed imperial vassal family. Yotsu are kind of in the same category, but far less likely to be up to villainous things.

[LucaCherstich 27]

That's good advice! Expecially since it has to do with one of my favourite arguments: the minor clans.

In my timeline there's is an MCAlliance but they are also a bunch of small egoists with different secret intrigues trying to survive in a world of big sharks.

For example while I made the MCA as neutral as possible I got the Ox as Lion allies in the Easten Alliance while, due to story needs I made the Hare enemies of the Lion which (rather surprisingly) did not manage to destroy them due to Scorpion and Crab protection (the Western alliance). 

So, yes. Having a pro-Hantei Kasuga is an interesting idea, especially since they have a role in Otosan Uchi which in my timeline is a Shogun-ruled island in an almost all Kampaku/Secret Hantei/Anti-Shogun East.

Edited March 5, 2017 by LucaCherstich

[sndwurks 1,223]

23 hours ago, LucaCherstich said:

 Any suggestion for sealing it?

Depending on how divine your want your Emperor to be?

Iweko I seals it as part of her bodily ascension into Tengoku. The rift between Spirit Realms is sealed, but the corruption it burned into the land is left behind.

[LucaCherstich 27]

18 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Depending on how divine your want your Emperor to be?

Iweko I seals it as part of her bodily ascension into Tengoku. The rift between Spirit Realms is sealed, but the corruption it burned into the land is left behind.

Really?

IS it your stuff or did they make it happen?

I'm an rpg player not a card one so I did not Know that it happened, if it is official.

By the way it looks Like a good suggestion For me in order to get rid of that pit, especially since the ascension happened about 100 years before my timeline.

Edited March 7, 2017 by LucaCherstich

[Myrion 326]

I'm pretty sure that's his proposal. I haven't seen that in any of the official stories I've seen.

[sndwurks 1,223]

Oh, it was totally my invention.

I have disliked the Second Pit since its inception, and dislike what it did to the Scorpion Clan, what it did to the Crab Clan, and how it framed the creation of the Spider Clan.