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Marinealver

Once the C-Roc is out should Huge ships be a requirement in Epic formats?

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So once the C-Roc is out every primary faction now has a Huge ship. That being said the Epic meta still seems to favor Starfighter wings (w/ 4x IG-2000 being king). So when epic was first announced Huge ships were only an option not a requirement for the main reason that only one faction had huge ships. The Raider was released after the Scum faction which meant you still had a faction that did not had access to huge ships (thus why I made my GR-75 conversion kit for Scum). Now the C-Roc will be out every (primary) faction will have a huge ship thus every faction has a huge ship.

So with that being said should Huge ships be a requirement to play Epic.

IMHO playing with huge ships is the largest reason (if not the only reason) to play Epic format.  So some of the pros and cons behind this requirement.

First the Bad News.

  • Not Everyone has huge ships. This is a given fact. With the core game being reasonably cheap and Expansions ranging from $15-$40 not too many people are willing to spend $65-$100 for a model they can't take to tournaments with.  $100 for one upgrade card is not a good value proposition. 
  • Huge ships are difficult to play. They play nothing like standard ships. They don't even use the same maneuver templates (it takes 3 banks to turn 90 degrees). All these different rules and actions make huge ships mechanics rather cumbersome. Many huge ships rules are often broken on accident because players simply don't know how they work and the rules just about doubles the complexity of the game.
  • Huge ships suffer from the standard meta. Huge ships had to have several changes because of their faction exclusivity they were left rather under-powered with their range 5 shots giving out 3 bonus green dice. Starfighter swarms ate them apart. Now while these changes means that not every TIE swarm variant scores a huge ship still they are not as good against a meta list. Take TLT-wings for example. 4-8 TLT wings and huge ships melt. Bringing a huge ship is like saying here have some free points. Thus you might see naked transports 30-40 points just to fill the requirement and serve nothing more than a distraction while the lean mean starfighting machines do the real battle.

Now that that's out of the way, here are the reasons for making Huge ships a requirement.

  • Huge ship expansion packs give the most points per dollar. So given the $100 Raider which comes with not just the huge ship but a Starfighter as well. The huge ship alone is already 100 points before upgrade and the starfighter starts at 21 points, so that is 121 points for $100 just for the models. Add the upgrades and everything you should have no problem filling 200 points making a huge ship expansion probably the best thing to purchase when entering Epic as you should have 100 points from your standard list already. Okay if $100 is still too much the Rebel Transport is only $65. Sure the ship is only 30 points before upgrades but also comes with a 21 point starfighter, so that is 52 points for $65. With good upgrades and everything you should have no problem filling up a hundred points and then just add in the rest of your collection for the 200 points and you got an epic squadron list. Face it a $100 meta upgrade care is not worth the value but a 100+ point ship and models pilot/upgrade cards you can use in standard and other formats as well is completely worth it.
  • Huge Ships are getting better in the Epic meta. At first with the faction exclusivity for huge ships they were introduced as rather meagerly powered. That being said there has been erratas (such as making bonus dice for range 4 and 5 the same as range 3) and upgrades to make them far better than they were before. And with each huge ship there are more upgrades that all the huge ships can use. 
  • Huge ships look amazing. They are the perfect centerpiece for any collection. Got 100 tie fighters? okay cool, got a mini-star destroyer with them WOAH:o. They both can be played in the same game, now you are talking;). They just make any Epic format game seem Epic. Nuff said.

So what do you think? Should they or should they not be mandatory for Epic format?

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I do think huge ships should be required in epic play. Partly because most people DO have fun playing them, but if you actually bring them you're at a disadvantage usually compared to someone who just brings 300 points of fighters. 

Though said requirement does nothing to stop quad IG from wrecking face still

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58 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I do think huge ships should be required in epic play. Partly because most people DO have fun playing them, but if you actually bring them you're at a disadvantage usually compared to someone who just brings 300 points of fighters. 

Though said requirement does nothing to stop quad IG from wrecking face still

This is exactly how I feel about the matter too: Epic ships should be required, but that won't solve the underlying issue of their power level vs. non-epics.

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What's the point of owing an Epic ship if you don't use it when playing Epic! On the other hand just because Scum has a ship coming out should not mean that should you wish to enter an Epic tournament that you must use an Epic ship.

That being said I've faced 300 points of Scum Vs. my CR90 and squad a few times and yes it's a tough outing. Maybe it'd be more beneficial if there was a penalty for bringing 300 points of small/large ships like being worth more in victory points or something?

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I think the idea that your fleet must contain at least one Epic ship for the game to be considered an Epic / Cinematic game is very good and should be implemented. 

Even if you just take a bare bones Transport, it takes up reestate on the board and eats some of your points so you may as well use it.

I would welcome this change.  

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3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I do think huge ships should be required in epic play. Partly because most people DO have fun playing them, but if you actually bring them you're at a disadvantage usually compared to someone who just brings 300 points of fighters. 

Though said requirement does nothing to stop quad IG from wrecking face still

In my experience these squadrons do not like the cheaper huges with the full ramming package (as full as possible for each faction) backed up by high efficiency ships like Ghosts or Crack-Defenders. My experience is limited, though...

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3 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

I think something like "must include at least 1 epic point" would be a good rule with ships priced at 1 epic point for the C-ROC, GR-75 and Gozanti and 2 epic points for the CR-90 and Raider. Do what you want with the 300 points so long as you include at least 1 epic point.

Could this be also expanded with caveat like "at least 50/55 points?" if the issue of 40-points naked transport is really an issue...

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Do people really think epic ships are a liability anymore in epic? My experience is quite the opposite. The Croc is so **** point efficient that I don't think you'll have any trouble getting scum players to drop it on the table. My conern is actually the other way round, that ffg are bumping big ship efficiency up with every release to the point that we now have a 4-gun primary strapped to a tough snow plough with super cheap crew options for less that a naked Chiraneau.

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I played in a tournament that required minimum 3 epic points (CR-90 or Raider), so nobody could drop 300 points of fighters or a single Gozanti or GR-75 (2 points each). 

It was fun because it forced epic ships to be used. I think it might work if it was kept at 3 minimum, but count large based ships as 1/2 epic point.

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the whole system needs a rework if you want it to be competitive.  By definition the EPIC play is more casual because the rules are more casual and haven't had as much attention given to them.  That being said, I think you do just a little and make Epic more balanced.  As it stands, Epic is always less competitive than bring as many ships as you can.

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C-ROC Cruiser (49) C-ROC Cruiser (35), Dengar (3), Zuckuss (1), Heavy Laser Turret (5), Optimised Generators (5)

Here's 49points of mean business that can happily regen 4 shields a round, plough into enemies and head shot ships with Zuck without a care in the world.

The C-Roc is going to see lottssss of table time, fear not.

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Just my thoughts but I don't think it is really an Epic game without a Huge Ship. Otherwise it is just a bigger game and not very Epic at all.  Huge Ships on both sides or a mission that doesn't over power if there is only one on the table. 

Epic is made for Epic ships. Or was it the other way round?

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9 hours ago, Vitalis said:

Wasn't this requirement already included in one of TRs? Or it was removed later?

At first no because there was only one faction that had huge ships and that was the rebels. So if that was the requirement then no one could play Imperials. When the Imperial huge ship finally came out the scum faction was already in play which meant that Scum would not be able to play epic.

There have been many tournaments that allowed the factions without huge ships to "borrow" a huge ship from other factions. The first epic store tournament I went to we had the GR-75 transport and CR-90 be all factions (it was before the Raider was out). So that Imperials can play with huge ships as well.

3 hours ago, banjobenito said:

Do people really think epic ships are a liability anymore in epic? My experience is quite the opposite. The Croc is so **** point efficient that I don't think you'll have any trouble getting scum players to drop it on the table. My conern is actually the other way round, that ffg are bumping big ship efficiency up with every release to the point that we now have a 4-gun primary strapped to a tough snow plough with super cheap crew options for less that a naked Chiraneau.

First of all, how can you play the C-roc when we don't know what the dial or damage deck is? Well judging by your avatar I can already see you are one to make such preposterous claims, or are you talking about experiences with other ships?

If you were going to use the C-roc as a proxy just to see how it could work with the other S&V ships my best guess would be to use the Gozanti model, dial and damage deck since they look similar. Although I do believe FFG will be releasing a different dial and damage deck with the C-ROC just to make it something more than a Gozanti without the docking clamps.

Edited by Marinealver

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Steady on there!

"Do people really think epic ships are a liability anymore in epic? My experience is quite the opposite." Nothing there suggests I've proxied the C-roc.

My experience is that the two most recent epic ships are now well costed, with the ordnance tubes/protocols/generators fix. The C-roc continues that trajectory of pricing - I mean, come one, it is dirt cheap.

Perhaps another way of saying this is - why wouldn't a scum player take a C-roc in epic? With Optimised Generators (it's going to be stapled to the C-roc I suspect) it has great energy efficiency for regen, and no need for TL actions, due to dengar. If you want it to stick around a bit longer, you can spring for the Merchant One title and a contruction droid.

Downside is, it's competing for scum's key crewmembers. But if you want a huge upgrade to your partybus, move your party to the C-roc!

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I think FFG should just make the Corvettes (and maybe Rebel Transport) way cheaper.  Like so cheap you will always want the maximum number of Epic points you can legally fit in your squad.  They already have the Epic Point limit to keep a squad of three Corvettes from being possible so they can be priced super aggressively without ruining the game.  All for the cost of printing four or five pilot cards to be included with the 2-card Scum corvette equivalent.  

Edited by gamblertuba

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