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The last print? WTF FFG

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Damage was done for me.  Based off of what I read in the last week for those groups...many of which are local players I have met...I never, EVER want to play the game again or go to the stores.  That's not the community I want to be part of or support in the retail environment.  Again, of course to some; I am whining that the sky is falling.  Yeah no.  I see a negative environment that I have little need to be a part of.  I dropped X-Wing for the same reasons.

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20 minutes ago, GrandMoffMatt said:

Damage was done for me.  Based off of what I read in the last week for those groups...many of which are local players I have met...I never, EVER want to play the game again or go to the stores.  That's not the community I want to be part of or support in the retail environment.  Again, of course to some; I am whining that the sky is falling.  Yeah no.  I see a negative environment that I have little need to be a part of.  I dropped X-Wing for the same reasons.

People are clearly taking their Star Wars way too seriously. Want to come play Edge of the Empire with me? We can be ewoks and eat pie. 

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On 3/1/2017 at 4:49 AM, Robin Graves said:

Hard to find and expensive Lukes and vaders... It's the 90's again!  $_35.JPG?set_id=2

Even then, I could buy unlimited edition packs all day long.

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14 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

Even then, I could buy unlimited edition packs all day long.

I never found the Black Border ones. I remember spending all my allowance money on packs in middle school. Never got into the actual game though.

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There are so many things that are concerning with how Destiny is being handled.  Chief for me is that FFG went into this product with no plan for regular product for the first year of the game.  Awakenings was meant to be a one-off expansion from the beginning, meaning that FFG's plan for the game was to survive on starters and Awakenings boosters from launch in December until SoR in May.  And that they felt that their production run was adequate to support that.A

Regardless of the print run size, FFG felt there was no need for their CCG to have a base set designed to support new players, and available all throughout they year, reprinted as necessary.  That's not normal CCG business.  I don't even know what to call that, other than a ludicrously bad idea.  Compounded by the idea that a single print of an expansion would last and support a player base.  The final breaker is when you add in the Star Wars license, during a time of resurgence when the property is the hottest it's been in a decade, and sandwiched between two blockbuster films.  

Anyone looking at this and thinking FFG has demonstrated that they have a handle on this, and should be trusted to manage it in a successful way, really isn't paying attention. 

IF FFG has managed to increase SoR production to levels that can not only sustain pre-orders, but also support more casual players and OP events until the last expansion of the year arrives, then probably the game will do fine.  But if SoR flies off the shelves like Awakenings does, and vanishes, then good luck to it.  Today's gamers are not going to wait around for a game in any large enough amount to support a future CCG market for a game they can't get at reasonable prices, and play in events where they can't get more product.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Virtigo said:

I never found the Black Border ones. I remember spending all my allowance money on packs in middle school. Never got into the actual game though.

Played in HS, now I have a complete set sitting in a closet.  It was fun but very challenging.

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7 hours ago, GrandMoffMatt said:

I dropped both Destiny FB groups because of the negative attacks on me personally for voicing my concerns.  I think at the end of the day, there are more people that want to play than there is product.  And Supply and Demand being what it is, that prices many of those folks out of the game..  People want to play now, which admittedly isn't going to happen without a lot of generosity, and $$ for the current pricing scheme.  The attacks on these folks on a personal level?  Really?

I had an argument with my LGS owner over pricing.  I know for a fact they will never sell packs at $2.99 again after the announcement, and that is their right.  That said, the same three people pretty much have a lock on the product as it comes in.  It's also my right to determine what cost point is too high for me to play, and to decide whether or not to patronize the store.  To some here and elsewhere, that makes me a baby or worse.  Fascinating.

I don't have a much of a dog in this fight (although I do think too many people have their expectations set at unreasonable levels considering the various factors that play into the manufacturing process), but if you left two Destiny groups, don't want to participate in your local Destiny community, had an argument with the owner of the LGS, and left an X-Wing group "for the same reason," some introspection may be the order of the day for you. If you're continually upset with a game company's policies, processes, procedures, player base, and places that sell their games, maybe it's time to find something else.

There is no question product is limited, but they are also now limited in how they can respond to that AND provide new product. I *guarantee* you if they delayed SoR to make more Awakenings, the same rabble-rousers would rouse the rabble about that, too.

When I read "very limited run," I read "printing during the only window available at the factory without disrupting other projects." Apparently, the alarmist community read it differently. 

Most importantly, I have no idea why you folks think that FFG doesn't want to make a mint off this game. Clearly they're going to correct the supply-demand curve, but that takes time. If you're not patient, fine, but my lord, don't be surprised when your impatience gets a response and hurts your feelings.

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2 minutes ago, Cliffietheman said:

When I read "very limited run," I read "printing during the only window available at the factory without disrupting other projects." Apparently, the alarmist community read it differently. 

I don't think the two reads are mutually exclusive.  This may be the best that FFG can do.  It may also not be enough to actually fix the issues many players are experiencing.

The true difference of opinion lies in whether you expect FFG to have done better, and whether you're willing to accept their E for Effort.

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1 minute ago, Buhallin said:

I don't think the two reads are mutually exclusive.  This may be the best that FFG can do.  It may also not be enough to actually fix the issues many players are experiencing.

I said pretty much this in another thread. The BEST FFG can do may not be good enough and can force a smaller player pool. I'm sure they want to make a mint, doesn't mean they can. I see a lot of white knighting of FFG but the simple fact of the matter is they may not be able to support the demand which will make the game much smaller than it should be. And...

Realistically the premium dice idea for a ccg was overly optomistic at best and flat stupid at worst. Why make a game that requires many purchases then have it expensive and time consuming to make? There is a reason almost all ccg's just use cards and why dice masters goes for simple to make dice. This was a VERY poor choice to make a component for a game premium.

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28 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I said pretty much this in another thread. The BEST FFG can do may not be good enough and can force a smaller player pool. I'm sure they want to make a mint, doesn't mean they can. I see a lot of white knighting of FFG but the simple fact of the matter is they may not be able to support the demand which will make the game much smaller than it should be. And...

Realistically the premium dice idea for a ccg was overly optomistic at best and flat stupid at worst. Why make a game that requires many purchases then have it expensive and time consuming to make? There is a reason almost all ccg's just use cards and why dice masters goes for simple to make dice. This was a VERY poor choice to make a component for a game premium.

Why make a game with premium dice, even if it's difficult to do?  I don't know why FFG decided that.  BUT, for me at least I most likely wouldn't have been interested in the game without those dice.  I'm pretty much an unapologetic "Ameritrash" gamer and FFG Fanboy - I love chrome and bling and flair in my games and it's the dice that have called to me :)   

Whether or not this was a good business decision by FFG, I don't know.  Will the supply not meet demand over the course of the next year, and cause my small local group here to dry up?  Maybe.  For now, though, I'm willing to sit tight and be patient and enjoy & promote the game as best I can.  

I've never bought into or played CCGs before, but I have surely seen/experienced all the reprints and product delays FFG has had with other games.  No big deal to me - I'll just wait it out.  I suspect that most others will, too, and in the meantime if a lot of people drop out because they wanted the quicker community and product build of other CCGs (although I have heard that MTG had similar fits and starts in the beginning - to which I have no first hand knowledge), then oh well.  I would rather FFG have been conservative with their investment on SW:D than risk them taking a big gamble and running into trouble as a company.  

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1 hour ago, Cliffietheman said:

I don't have a much of a dog in this fight (although I do think too many people have their expectations set at unreasonable levels considering the various factors that play into the manufacturing process), but if you left two Destiny groups, don't want to participate in your local Destiny community, had an argument with the owner of the LGS, and left an X-Wing group "for the same reason," some introspection may be the order of the day for you. If you're continually upset with a game company's policies, processes, procedures, player base, and places that sell their games, maybe it's time to find something else.

There is no question product is limited, but they are also now limited in how they can respond to that AND provide new product. I *guarantee* you if they delayed SoR to make more Awakenings, the same rabble-rousers would rouse the rabble about that, too.

When I read "very limited run," I read "printing during the only window available at the factory without disrupting other projects." Apparently, the alarmist community read it differently. 

Most importantly, I have no idea why you folks think that FFG doesn't want to make a mint off this game. Clearly they're going to correct the supply-demand curve, but that takes time. If you're not patient, fine, but my lord, don't be surprised when your impatience gets a response and hurts your feelings.

Not necessarily.  I am in an area where the community is Tournament Only.  Attempts to have casual play are "Preparing for the next tournament."  When your pool of players is small, and smaller still in the case of this one because of the supply issues, that tends to lead to this.

That said, I have already moved on to something else, but please do not make this all about me.  If I am treated like an ass for an opinion that seems to be somewhat shared, then fine.  My decision was to step away in response to those communities, which I felt was a reasonable choice.  Clearly that's not to some. 

X-Wing was the same way.  Do please try to make a discussion about casual gaming there and see how it goes.  Please?  I'm not overtly negative, but this experience has been far worse than I expected it to be, and I voted to walk.

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52 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I said pretty much this in another thread. The BEST FFG can do may not be good enough and can force a smaller player pool. I'm sure they want to make a mint, doesn't mean they can. I see a lot of white knighting of FFG but the simple fact of the matter is they may not be able to support the demand which will make the game much smaller than it should be. And...

Realistically the premium dice idea for a ccg was overly optomistic at best and flat stupid at worst. Why make a game that requires many purchases then have it expensive and time consuming to make? There is a reason almost all ccg's just use cards and why dice masters goes for simple to make dice. This was a VERY poor choice to make a component for a game premium.

The biggest issue is the CCG format.  If it were an LCG format, players could share sets, pool resources...there's a reason why FFG went LCG all those years ago, and I think for the most part it was a wise decision.  Maybe the starter set needed to be bigger...with more characters?  Maybe the packs needed to have 2 characters per pack?  Or maybe they just needed to have made a game more in line with X-Wing, with set packs of 2-3 dice, like a character, upgrade, and one support, plus events, and skip the CCG model completely.  

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29 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

The biggest issue is the CCG format.  If it were an LCG format, players could share sets, pool resources...

Explain how. How do you share recources from an LCG? If you and another player both want to play the same factions, how would that work? Most LCGS already have just enough cards for one deck to begin with. (And don't get me started about the San San city grid card for netrunner) So you will have to choose to play different decks/factions- but that can be done with CCGs to.

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13 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

They already make a Star Wars LCG.

How are people not worn out on LCGs anyways? There's so much recycled artwork and game mechanics between all of FFG's properties, it's a wonder we're as loyal as we are. 

I know right?  But it's only really bad with Cthulhu and Star Wars properties, less so with Netrunner, AGOT and LOTR. And the issue only crops up if you follow multiple games. I doubt that people who only play destiny would even know that the same art appears also in the LCG and the RPGs. And you can't really blame FFG, It's just cheaper this way, and as long as the art is good I'll guess well put up with it.*

 

* It has kept me from buying the CoC art book tough. I was like; "Nope. Seen that stuff 3 of 4 times by now! enough is enough."

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I think FFG went the CCG route to pay for the R&D of the dice. They just didn't bank on it selling out so fast, but I'm sure they're thrilled and in no hurry to do or say anything jeopardize that. 

If this was an LCG, we see a huge cost. The SWLCG core set is $40 and realistically back when it came out, you needed two copies to get the most bang for your buck. If Destiny was a LCG, it would include so little product and would naturally include that "buy two core sets" dynamic that FFG seems to love. 

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2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

The biggest issue is the CCG format.  If it were an LCG format, players could share sets, pool resources...there's a reason why FFG went LCG all those years ago, and I think for the most part it was a wise decision.  Maybe the starter set needed to be bigger...with more characters?  Maybe the packs needed to have 2 characters per pack?  Or maybe they just needed to have made a game more in line with X-Wing, with set packs of 2-3 dice, like a character, upgrade, and one support, plus events, and skip the CCG model completely.  

If it were an LCG it would be an entirely different game because of the release schedule and the card count with the base set and each expansion.

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13 hours ago, hey_yu said:

I can understand to certain extent folks frustration for not being able to purchase product for a gaming hobby due to supply issues.  It's unfortunate.  There maybe more productive avenues for complaints like by going thru the company for better results, etc.  If FFGs limited print run of the base set is inadequate after April then I think folks have a legit reason to complain.  Though, I think folks should sit back and take the wait and see approach to see if this is the case or not.  Rather than continuing to complain about it.

 

The SW LCG is been around for a couple years.  Pretty sure there is plenty of product.

just talking about destiny

13 hours ago, bravo29 said:

Everybody deserves an opinion. Mine is some people are at a point of yelling "sky is falling sky is falling" while some are yelling "OMG NUCLEAR WAR INCOMING!!!!". While some of us are just stating relax and wait. Yes the first was shipment horrible, but all we can do is wait.

You got some that state they cant get packs to compete. Well buy singles then for the time being. You will probably spend the same amount as if you were cracking packs for that one or two cards.

As for the limited print runs I can see a pro and con for it. Neither of those involve what about future new players. Base sets will always give the new player a chance to play the game.

 

majority of players get there product from loose boosters, we are the exception not the rule

 

3 hours ago, Zordren said:

Why make a game with premium dice, even if it's difficult to do?  I don't know why FFG decided that.  BUT, for me at least I most likely wouldn't have been interested in the game without those dice.  I'm pretty much an unapologetic "Ameritrash" gamer and FFG Fanboy - I love chrome and bling and flair in my games and it's the dice that have called to me :)   

Whether or not this was a good business decision by FFG, I don't know.  Will the supply not meet demand over the course of the next year, and cause my small local group here to dry up?  Maybe.  For now, though, I'm willing to sit tight and be patient and enjoy & promote the game as best I can.  

I've never bought into or played CCGs before, but I have surely seen/experienced all the reprints and product delays FFG has had with other games.  No big deal to me - I'll just wait it out.  I suspect that most others will, too, and in the meantime if a lot of people drop out because they wanted the quicker community and product build of other CCGs (although I have heard that MTG had similar fits and starts in the beginning - to which I have no first hand knowledge), then oh well.  I would rather FFG have been conservative with their investment on SW:D than risk them taking a big gamble and running into trouble as a company.  

you think since they done this in the past they have got better from there mistakes. it seems there not learning and doing the exact same thing over which means either there insane or there fine with shorting out the playerbase

3 hours ago, kingbobb said:

The biggest issue is the CCG format.  If it were an LCG format, players could share sets, pool resources...there's a reason why FFG went LCG all those years ago, and I think for the most part it was a wise decision.  Maybe the starter set needed to be bigger...with more characters?  Maybe the packs needed to have 2 characters per pack?  Or maybe they just needed to have made a game more in line with X-Wing, with set packs of 2-3 dice, like a character, upgrade, and one support, plus events, and skip the CCG model completely.  

no the big issue is them treating this game as a lcg when they need to run it as a ccg

Edited by soviet prince

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5 hours ago, kingbobb said:

The biggest issue is the CCG format.  If it were an LCG format, players could share sets, pool resources...there's a reason why FFG went LCG all those years ago, and I think for the most part it was a wise decision.  Maybe the starter set needed to be bigger...with more characters?  Maybe the packs needed to have 2 characters per pack?  Or maybe they just needed to have made a game more in line with X-Wing, with set packs of 2-3 dice, like a character, upgrade, and one support, plus events, and skip the CCG model completely.  

Make the sides and colors LCG Xpacs, Force Villians/Hero Scum, and include some generics for say 40-60 and I bet most would buy in a heart beat. Having to run around to get A card that you want/need two of at 40 each that had a die is loopy.

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3 hours ago, Hawkman2000 said:

I think FFG went the CCG route to pay for the R&D of the dice. They just didn't bank on it selling out so fast, but I'm sure they're thrilled and in no hurry to do or say anything jeopardize that. 

If this was an LCG, we see a huge cost. The SWLCG core set is $40 and realistically back when it came out, you needed two copies to get the most bang for your buck. If Destiny was a LCG, it would include so little product and would naturally include that "buy two core sets" dynamic that FFG seems to love. 

I'm into Awakenings for around $600 with no extras and missing 10 cards yet for a complete playset and that is being conservative. An LCG model would not come close to touching that in its first set. 

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