The last print? WTF FFG

[bageldrone 91]

So I've had a friend who has wanted to buy into destiny since December and we havnt been able to get any boosters that aren't triple rrp. Do I now tell him to preorder and hope that it actually gets fulfilled (good chance it won't) or tell him to wait for next years release as this one will probably rotate out? 

Amd if it doesn't rotate out and next years release are underpowered compared to it what then? (E.g. Jango)Cos I can't see people playing in tournaments if the previous wave which is now unobtainable is superior 

FFS....

[pstalker 47]

17 minutes ago, bageldrone said:

So I've had a friend who has wanted to buy into destiny since December and we havnt been able to get any boosters that aren't triple rrp. Do I now tell him to preorder and hope that it actually gets fulfilled (good chance it won't) or tell him to wait for next years release as this one will probably rotate out? 

Amd if it doesn't rotate out and next years release are underpowered compared to it what then? (E.g. Jango)Cos I can't see people playing in tournaments if the previous wave which is now unobtainable is superior 

FFS....

First, nothing was mentioned at all about any sort of rotation policy so I think it is way too early to start jumping to conclusions there.

Second, they didn't say how big the reprint will be.  Hopefully they will be large enough for those of you who chose not to pre-order your product before release.

[Hawkman2000 352]

There's no mention of a rotation policy, but the article does say that base sets will be "replaced" by subsequent base sets. I would take this to mean that for tournament play, base sets could rotate out. 

[Network57 561]

1 minute ago, Hawkman2000 said:

There's no mention of a rotation policy, but the article does say that base sets will be "replaced" by subsequent base sets. I would take this to mean that for tournament play, base sets could rotate out. 

Legend of the 5 Rings had a format of releasing a base set + 3-4 expansions, rinse & repeat. There were 2 main legalities, one included only the most recent base set and everything subsequent, and one went back to everything from 2 base sets ago. That was a decent system of rotation, whereby new players could still find enough supply for good decks within a common tournament format. So even if Awakenings gets expensive and scarce, next year's base set would be a brand-new starting spot for newbies -- assuming they solve supply issues and have enough for everyone!

[hey_yu 272]

Welcome to the world of CCGs

[player1750031 841]

17 minutes ago, hey_yu said:

Welcome to the world of CCGs

Basically this.

In fact, FFG giving people a heads up on the last printing of the set a full three months in advance is quite considerate.

I am also thinking that the annual 'Base Sets' might contain a percantage of card reprints to keep the meta staples in circulation and keep tournament rotations (there WILL be a rotation system for Organized Play, you'd have to be extremely ignorant of CCG economics and design principles to think otherwise) less of a paradigm shift and more of a gradual evolution.

Edited February 28, 2017 by player1750031

[ozmodon 535]

Everyone seems to be complaining that a collectable game is in fact going to be collectable. WTF indeed.

Not only did we have a game store that talked to it's buyers but they went so far as to call around when supplies were short to get an extra 4 cases from other stores. I am sorry that some stores  chose to wait and see how it was going to do before trying to get product. Missing the boat or wanting on board after the ship had already set sail, so to speak.

I keep hearing that the sky is falling  despite FFG giving us a great game.

If you  have a problem with availability you should probably look for a game that isn't collectable.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

18 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

Everyone seems to be complaining that a collectable game is in fact going to be collectable. WTF indeed.

Not only did we have a game store that talked to it's buyers but they went so far as to call around when supplies were short to get an extra 4 cases from other stores. I am sorry that some stores  chose to wait and see how it was going to do before trying to get product. Missing the boat or wanting on board after the ship had already set sail, so to speak.

I keep hearing that the sky is falling  despite FFG giving us a great game.

If you  have a problem with availability you should probably look for a game that isn't collectable.

Availability has nothing to do with collectability.  We had several boardgames at my LGS that had didn't even touch the shelves before they were sold out. If I can buy Magic boosters and stuff at my LGS, why not Destiny? Ok It's probably a bit unfair to compare destiny with MTG, Pokemon and yugioh, but FFG isn't exactly a small company either. You gotta be able to collect a CCG. And that's kinda hard without product.

[Robin Graves 6,054]

38 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

Basically this.

In fact, FFG giving people a heads up on the last printing of the set a full three months in advance is quite considerate.

I am also thinking that the annual 'Base Sets' might contain a percantage of card reprints to keep the meta staples in circulation and keep tournament rotations (there WILL be a rotation system for Organized Play, you'd have to be extremely ignorant of CCG economics and design principles to think otherwise) less of a paradigm shift and more of a gradual evolution.

It seems a bit soon to already quit printing the stuff, then again they didn't specify how large that final print run will be. Personally I'd prefer if they printed the crap out each set, drives the prices down, wich is better for the players.

[spacelion 453]

7 hours ago, bageldrone said:

So I've had a friend who has wanted to buy into destiny since December and we havnt been able to get any boosters that aren't triple rrp. Do I now tell him to preorder and hope that it actually gets fulfilled (good chance it won't) or tell him to wait for next years release as this one will probably rotate out? 

Amd if it doesn't rotate out and next years release are underpowered compared to it what then? (E.g. Jango)Cos I can't see people playing in tournaments if the previous wave which is now unobtainable is superior 

FFS....

No, because most collectible games have power creep, it's quite prevalent in X-Wing which is also made by FFG.

[player1750031 841]

1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

It seems a bit soon to already quit printing the stuff, then again they didn't specify how large that final print run will be. Personally I'd prefer if they printed the crap out each set, drives the prices down, wich is better for the players.

Historically, overprinting a CCG set, especially for a new or relatively new game, has been proven to be one of the most sure-fire ways to bankrupt your entire gaming company.

Granted, FFG/Asmodee are big enough to probably be able to absorb the financial implications, but that doesn't mean they are or should be keen on making fiscally irresponsible decisions.

I'm actually more surprised that they will actually reprint Awakenings after Spirit of Rebellion than the fact that they will be doing singular print runs of each set. I'd expect them not to take the gamble on reprinting sets until the game has REALLY established itself in the market - maybe two or three years in, not months.

Edited March 1, 2017 by player1750031

[Hawkman2000 352]

1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

It seems a bit soon to already quit printing the stuff, then again they didn't specify how large that final print run will be. Personally I'd prefer if they printed the crap out each set, drives the prices down, wich is better for the players.

Too little product and no one can play. Prices on the secondary go thru the roof. People lose interest because it becomes a rich kids game of having half the set be on the pricey side. 

Too much product and then everyone can play all the time. Prices on the secondary plummet. People begin to use the secondary as their sole source of product, because why take chances on boosters if the secondary prices become so low. It becomes point-and-click and all decks start to look the same (like the SWLCG or IA). People lose interest because there is no hunt or chase. It might as well be a LCG. 

There really needs to be a fine line. 

[amrothe 155]

Expect prices for the reprints to be 2-3 times base price  expect singles prices to even out except for the chase cards which will probably tripple in value or more.

 

I would not be surprised to see $150 dollar vaders lukes and $50 sith holocrons and $75 jetpacks

[Barbacuo 153]

15 minutes ago, Hawkman2000 said:

 

There really needs to be a fine line. 

LCGs

[Hawkman2000 352]

9 minutes ago, Barbacuo said:

LCGs

That's not the idea. Like I said, then the game just ends up being the same decks like the SWLCG. This game needs the CCG factor to make it hot and to recover costs - those dice ain't cheap. 

[Amanal 2,557]

28 minutes ago, Barbacuo said:

LCGs

How would you stage the cards release to even make that work?

A base set of 12 characters (2 of each colour for Heroes and Villains), if you made it 60 cards and added in another 12 upgrades and supports you have 60 cards and 24 dice(perhaps here the contents of the starter are unique as to make/encourage you buy 2 copies), and a very limited pool of Characters to build decks from. Now bi-monthly releases of say 60 cards (30 unique cards with 2 copies) and 20 dice will see by year end: 240 unique cards and 84 unique dice. It would be August before we had the card variety we have now, and by year end we'll not be significantly better off, with just two additional sets to expand the game.

With the CCG model we'll have 510 cards 72 Characters and a further 100+ dice cards, far more variety.

[Darth Onyx 74]

11 hours ago, bageldrone said:

So I've had a friend who has wanted to buy into destiny since December and we havnt been able to get any boosters that aren't triple rrp. Do I now tell him to preorder and hope that it actually gets fulfilled (good chance it won't) or tell him to wait for next years release as this one will probably rotate out? 

Amd if it doesn't rotate out and next years release are underpowered compared to it what then? (E.g. Jango)Cos I can't see people playing in tournaments if the previous wave which is now unobtainable is superior 

FFS....

Same here however, my buddy can't even buy the starter sets because my LGC hasn't had them since the end of December.

[soviet prince 105]

7 hours ago, hey_yu said:

Welcome to the world of CCGs

no this is not the world of ccg's this is it's on little beast

7 hours ago, player1750031 said:

Basically this.

In fact, FFG giving people a heads up on the last printing of the set a full three months in advance is quite considerate.

I am also thinking that the annual 'Base Sets' might contain a percantage of card reprints to keep the meta staples in circulation and keep tournament rotations (there WILL be a rotation system for Organized Play, you'd have to be extremely ignorant of CCG economics and design principles to think otherwise) less of a paradigm shift and more of a gradual evolution.

considerate? considerate ? are you nuts . if they were considerate they would print enough for there game to grow and players to get product. 

7 hours ago, ozmodon said:

Everyone seems to be complaining that a collectable game is in fact going to be collectable. WTF indeed.

Not only did we have a game store that talked to it's buyers but they went so far as to call around when supplies were short to get an extra 4 cases from other stores. I am sorry that some stores  chose to wait and see how it was going to do before trying to get product. Missing the boat or wanting on board after the ship had already set sail, so to speak.

I keep hearing that the sky is falling  despite FFG giving us a great game.

If you  have a problem with availability you should probably look for a game that isn't collectable.

ccg's are not run that way I have experience with many ccg's from many different company's this is a sole FFG problem

6 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

It seems a bit soon to already quit printing the stuff, then again they didn't specify how large that final print run will be. Personally I'd prefer if they printed the crap out each set, drives the prices down, wich is better for the players.

"very limited" was enough specificity i need 

5 hours ago, player1750031 said:

Historically, overprinting a CCG set, especially for a new or relatively new game, has been proven to be one of the most sure-fire ways to bankrupt your entire gaming company.

Granted, FFG/Asmodee are big enough to probably be able to absorb the financial implications, but that doesn't mean they are or should be keen on making fiscally irresponsible decisions.

I'm actually more surprised that they will actually reprint Awakenings after Spirit of Rebellion than the fact that they will be doing singular print runs of each set. I'd expect them not to take the gamble on reprinting sets until the game has REALLY established itself in the market - maybe two or three years in, not months.

it's Irresponsible to not print enough product to support your game,  

[johnwiser 31]

I rather like how you come on these boards to tell a huge company how to run things. Really? You and a few others sure know a lot about how to do things. Might I ask why you do not join together and start your own business? What I thought. 

Bottom line, you do not like how this game is going FFG just told you how they were going to do things. Now might be the time to find your exit or find another forum. You have been very vocal on how FFG should run things and you are not FFG.  You and your small group complain and carry on and get away with it because there is no one here to stop you all. 

Is everything perfect with Destiny, no. Will Destiny last and be a game the masses will enjoy? Time will tell. I rather enjoy the game but I may stop after the third set just because I have very little interest in buying so much. However if that should be the case I am happy with what I have and the game will be played for years to come as I rather enjoy it myself and it plays rather fast with classic characters I know and enjoy seeing in card/die form.

 

[soviet prince 105]

some of you ppl I think are out of touch with reality, FFG is running this game into the ground with there awful decisions. Anyone with common sense knows it's a bad idea to make your product unobtainable (second market don't count) to your playerbase, how is this game going to grow if there is no product to buy? I am sorry I wont stick my hand in the sand like you seem to be doing but I am not going to sit and accept mediocre service.  What will it take for you all to stop giving them a pass and hold them accountable, if not there going to continue shorting out the playerbase which will result in the stunted growth of this game. 

 

 

[bageldrone 91]

1 hour ago, johnwiser said:

I rather like how you come on these boards to tell a huge company how to run things. Really? You and a few others sure know a lot about how to do things. Might I ask why you do not join together and start your own business? What I thought. 

Bottom line, you do not like how this game is going FFG just told you how they were going to do things. Now might be the time to find your exit or find another forum. You have been very vocal on how FFG should run things and you are not FFG.  You and your small group complain and carry on and get away with it because there is no one here to stop you all. 

Is everything perfect with Destiny, no. Will Destiny last and be a game the masses will enjoy? Time will tell. I rather enjoy the game but I may stop after the third set just because I have very little interest in buying so much. However if that should be the case I am happy with what I have and the game will be played for years to come as I rather enjoy it myself and it plays rather fast with classic characters I know and enjoy seeing in card/die form.

 

Sorry but what is there to like about this model? I love the game. I'm just mad that my friends and others won't be getting into it because of this BS. 

 

[Robin Graves 6,054]

9 hours ago, amrothe said:

Expect prices for the reprints to be 2-3 times base price  expect singles prices to even out except for the chase cards which will probably tripple in value or more.

 

I would not be surprised to see $150 dollar vaders lukes and $50 sith holocrons and $75 jetpacks

Hard to find and expensive Lukes and vaders... It's the 90's again! 

[player1750031 841]

2 hours ago, soviet prince said:

some of you ppl I think are out of touch with reality, FFG is running this game into the ground with there awful decisions. Anyone with common sense knows it's a bad idea to make your product unobtainable (second market don't count) to your playerbase, how is this game going to grow if there is no product to buy? I am sorry I wont stick my hand in the sand like you seem to be doing but I am not going to sit and accept mediocre service.  What will it take for you all to stop giving them a pass and hold them accountable, if not there going to continue shorting out the playerbase which will result in the stunted growth of this game. 

 

 

I'm not sure you were here on these boards when they announced the game. Ugly doesn't begin to describe it. People were torches-and-pitchforks offended at just the idea of FFG making a collectible game.

So, the recap:

FFG announces they'll be making a collectible game.

The public reaction is largely indifferent to hostile towards the idea. Retailers on a whole don't order much, if at all.

FFG adjust the printing schedule to be more conservative, since everything predicts the game will tank.

The prerelase events happen and turns out everyone is bonkers about the game.

Retailers scramble frantically to order more stuff. They quickly go through FFG's remaining stock, due to the initial, conservative estimates.

FFG releases more stock in waves so that the market can absorb it gradually and doesn't tank to the ground. This fails to provide enough product due to people being unreasonable - reports of guys buying half a dozen boxes seemed like a normal occurence in some places on the Internet. Singles prices skyrocket and as a result stores are incentivized to break product up for singles.

FFG sets up a second printing of the set in the first open window in the China factories.  Schedules and logistics being tough and with Chinese New Years along the way, it won't hit stores until June.

FFG provides players with a heads-up of when the reprint will be coming three months in advance, so that people that are disappointed with the stock issues can prepare and get their stuff the moment it is available. They also provide information on the release schedule a year forward so everyone has a clear idea what will be coming and when, to minimize the chances of this happening again.

That's the situation. Now, I understand of you're frustrated that you can't get the game where you are, but calling people mentally unstable for being less frustrated than you or proclaiming to 'make the company accountable' for allegedly conspiring to keep product out of your hands is a bit much.

Did they not print enough? Yes, and that's due to everyone and their dog telling them the game will fail.

Are they printing more? Yes, and unfortunately due to a lot of manufacturing and logistical difficulties, they can't just click their heels and make stock appear in the warehouse overnight.

Are they telling you in advance they're printing more? Yes, and are in fact very clearly telegraphing to you that this will be the last call to get this particular set so that you can prepare adequately.

I'm baffled what more you would want. In reasonable and realistic terms, not 'FFG give more boosters or we riot'.

Edited March 1, 2017 by player1750031

[Robin Graves 6,054]

1 hour ago, player1750031 said:

 

Are they telling you in advance they're printing more? Yes, and are in fact very clearly telegraphing to you that this will be the last call to get this particular set so that you can prepare adequately.

I'm baffled what more you would want. In reasonable and realistic terms, not 'FFG give more boosters or we riot'.

Simple: Just print more. Not "Ok we're printing more, but it will be the last time. Oh and it will be a limited print run (wich peopal assume is smaller) so come and get it while it's hot!"

[dpb1298 251]

My fear is that FFG still won't produce enough for their print runs and scalpers will buy up all the stock since it'll only have one printing. Once Destiny became popular people went and bought 12+ boxes to hoard for once stock ran out. They were right and it did indeed sell out leaving them a nice money making cash cow. Normal folks just wanting to get a few boosters were left with nothing and the scalpers started jacking up the secondary market unreasonably. I'm only willing to pay about $3-4 for rares and $10-12 for legendaries. I'm not willing to fork over $45 for something I could draw. Unfortunately I don't have to option of purchasing boosters since its all sold out. I'm pretty lucky to have about one of half of the legendaries, almost one of every rare, two of most commons, and almost one of each uncommon. But this business model only encourages scalpers to buy up all the stock and then bide their time a set or two until people are willing to pay their ridiculous prices. This will only work if their 'one print run' keeps product on the shelf to buy for four months. I'd love to see the scalpers stuck sitting on hoards of product that is only worth retail price.

I hope they do produce enough since it's not in FFG's interest to let scalpers successfully sell their product for three times the suggested price. Having it collectable and available to purchase for about four months would be in their interest since they'll make money until the next set, and the old one's will still retain value.

Did I mention I really hate the overpriced singles market, btw? AND stores not fulfilling pre-orders to crack their own boxes for singles? Such business dishonesty in my opinion. I'm boycotting stores that sell overpriced boosters or crack packs for singles unless their have surplus stock.