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Could they save the game by getting rid of the scum faction?

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7 hours ago, Jedu said:

I feel that scum is a "troll" faction, focused to mess with other faction abilities and strengths.

Rebels have Regen....... and the "synergy" style builds (Shara, Jess..), probably better with bombs and more turrets (than imps).

Imps have arc dodging, dice modifying, auto damage, token stacking and efficient (formerly) swarms.

Scum can mess with all of the above, and token stack (mind-link), arc dodge, more big ships than the other factions, small base cannons, tractors, bombs.....

Each faction is evolving into it's particular niche. I know there are some issues with people feeling its a rock/paper/death star list building, but it has been since wave 2(??). Scum bring other things to the table, they do have an edge on overall ship design (except the Khirax...) as they were late to the party and some of the lessons which had been learnt upto their release were incorporated (and X-Wings got left behind) into them from the off rather than via catch-up. 3 factions is as healthy as 2 factions, when Imperials were dominant people ran them, when fat turrets were dominant people ran them. Scum are now dominant and people are running them. Paratanni isn't unbeatable, in theory nothing is.... how they fly and how you fly is still a big part of the game and always has been.

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2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Out of curiosity, how many non-parrattanni builds are out there with mindlink and gyro targetting on asajj (and not latts).  I have no problem with gyro on asajj in general, it's a useful mod, but it only applies to this conversation if you have gyro targetting AND mindlink.

Ah, my bad. I thought the discussion had become more general concerning Asajj then just mindlink lists.

 

1 hour ago, Clancampbell said:

I never claimed to have "secret" evidence. On the other hand, your proof that the game is fine, is simply saying that's the positive statement. so I don't need to prove it. Which, frankly, is asinine.

 

Global warming is good! There I don't have to prove it, because I made a positive statement.

And yet you haven't commented on other people who disagreed with your opinion and supplied counter arguments. If you want to convince others of your point, you have to do the work. Achowat has thus far done well to counter your points and there is still the matter of other counters. 

I'm trying to say you don't have valid concerns. But you are presenting them in a way that is unconvincing and lacks backing that hasn't been addressed. 

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1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

 

Re Scum: the mechanics of the faction is laden with NPE features that appeal to some players. They don't really appeal to me. Scum characters had very minor roles in the movies and frankly I wouldn't mind it they all went off to Mos Eisley and never came back. 

If X-wing was limited to Pilots that had a major role in the movies this would be the most boring game in the world...

 

Embrace the Scum.... you know you want to ;)

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55 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

State of X-Wing

image.jpeg

I do believe it's more a "we've seen worse" kind of mentality. Yes, there are issues to be looked at, but I think it's better for the players to try and fix the problem ourselves with the tools we have before running to FFG and asking for more tools. 

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4 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Getting rid of Scum is obviously a completely ridiculous overreaction, but the Jumpmaster is probably the biggest mistake the game has made since the the TIE Phantom.  

I'd argue it's the biggest mistake full stop. As bad as it was, the Phantom could still be hard countered (it didn't actually take off in my local area because a few of the core players brought nothing but VI Han to events until people got the point), and once it was nerfed it stayed down for quite a while before stabilising into a relatively healthy role in the overall meta. The Jumpmaster, meanwhile, has seen one of its builds nerfed twice, and not only is that build still performing but almost every other competitive Scum build features one or more.

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I totally agree. 

 

Scum sucks. This game should have stayed actual star wars. 

 

They are stupid, cartoony characters and ships and their abilities and stats are terrible. 

Delete the scum faction, keep a few upgrades like Autothrusters, tweak the costs of a few ships and we'd be there. 

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4 hours ago, Clancampbell said:

I never claimed to have "secret" evidence. On the other hand, your proof that the game is fine, is simply saying that's the positive statement. so I don't need to prove it. Which, frankly, is asinine.

 

Global warming is good! There I don't have to prove it, because I made a positive statement.

You claimed there was evidence, but you haven't provided it. You must have access to that evidence but you're not sharing it. That's secret.

That's not what I've offered as my proof. My proof is that it is the most popular miniatures game on the planet and that any claims that the game requires saving are insufficient. Until sufficient arguments are made to demonstrate the positive claim that the game does need fixing, that point can stand.

--

I think you're getting confused on "positive" versus "negative" statements. It has nothing to do with whether the tone of the comment is good or bad. In fact, reading more careful, you'd see that I've said consistently that you are making the positive claim, which may seem odd, given that you're saying the negative thing about the game.

The reason you need to prove your statement ("The game is in need of saving") is that it makes a positive claim; it's saying that this is the way things are. In the status quo, before evidence, nothing "needs saving." Since you're proposing a change to that status quo, you're making the positive claim.

I'm making a negative claim. All I'm saying is that the game doesn't need saving. My claim is simply that your claim is false. It is a negative claim.

 

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10 hours ago, kris40k said:

Hey, we can go back to talking about flappy S-Foils and comparing Rogue Squadron titles if you like.

To be fair like 90% of all the "flappy S-foil and OMG FFG fix rebels now!" Threads, belonged to a single poster. As a matter of fact we're probably due for another one any second.

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2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I'd argue it's the biggest mistake full stop. As bad as it was, the Phantom could still be hard countered (it didn't actually take off in my local area because a few of the core players brought nothing but VI Han to events until people got the point), and once it was nerfed it stayed down for quite a while before stabilising into a relatively healthy role in the overall meta. The Jumpmaster, meanwhile, has seen one of its builds nerfed twice, and not only is that build still performing but almost every other competitive Scum build features one or more.

I'm definitely not saying that there is nothing wrong with the Jumpmaster, (there is) but what I got from your post is that you didn't have very good Phantom players in your area back before the nerf. 

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7 hours ago, Clancampbell said:

Alright, then where is your evidence that it doesn't need fixing? Look around these boards, there are many, many threads talking about the imbalances in the game. The action economy of the dengaroo or parrattani lists border on broken, and you think this game doesn't need to be fixed? What game are you playing?

...?

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7 hours ago, Achowat said:

1. I can't prove a universal negative.

2. As the one making the positive claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

3. I'm playing the world's most popular tabletop miniatures game.

4. Have you read some of these threads about inbalances? This game could be 8 TIEs vs 8 Z-95s and this board would find something to complain about.

I'm glad you managed to give an actual response to his post. I didn't even know where to begin. 

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Scum is not the problem.  Neither are Rebels or the Empire; the problem is that, as good as this game is, some of us have way too much time to devote to it and that becomes troublesome when coupled with a strongly competitive mindset.  The result is people sitting around, building lists in their free time, essentially seeking ways to win before the game is even on the table, instead of simply PLAYING the game and enjoying the thematic goodness of Star Wars.  Some degree of influence is to be expected of the upgrades used.  Why else would we spend points on them at all? But in my opinion, it is unfortunate that games are won and lost simply because someone has mediocre maneuver skills but a hyper-efficient combination of pilots and upgrades.  

Most of the things that I see people complain about on these forums result from how we choose to play the game.

If you are going to take the time to try to find abusive combos just to make it easier to win imaginary battles with little plastic ships, you should expect that overpowered lists will continue to emerge.  The only way to really avoid it is for FFG to have not made the game in the first place, and having crossed that bridge, every expansion makes it more likely that another power combo is lying dormant somewhere, waiting to be discovered.  

Consider the regular attitude on these forums whenever a new expansion is previewed.  If the upgrades aren't quickly recognized as tournament worthy, they're torn apart.  If something reaches a community consensus of being overcosted by 1 point, its virtually a trash upgrade out of the gate.  Meanwhile, the next abusive, meta-breaking combo is desperately sought out among the previewed contents.

The reason that the game suffers power creep is because that is what many gamers are looking for.  Instead of blaming FFG for breaking a game, we should consider that with each expansion, we are looking for ways to break it ourselves, all in the name of winning some alt art cards, acrylic templates or tokens, or whatever else. (Spoiler: you can get your own CUSTOM acrylic templates from numerous online dealers, so instead of finding game breaking combos, you could just spend $20.)

Yes, we the X-wing community are to blame for breaking the game, and only we can choose to fix it.  If you don't want a broken game, stop looking for ways to break it.

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32 minutes ago, Vykk Draygo said:

I'm definitely not saying that there is nothing wrong with the Jumpmaster, (there is) but what I got from your post is that you didn't have very good Phantom players in your area back before the nerf. 

The ones who would have been good Phantom players were also the ones trying to stamp it out. They realised how good it really was and tried to nip it in the bud, and early-on in Wave 4 the most obvious and direct route was to take a turret that shot before it. Wasn't entirely successful, but it kept our meta from turning into one of the Dual-Phantom hellholes.

Edited by DR4CO

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5 hours ago, Clancampbell said:

I never claimed to have "secret" evidence. On the other hand, your proof that the game is fine, is simply saying that's the positive statement. so I don't need to prove it. Which, frankly, is asinine.

 

Global warming is good! There I don't have to prove it, because I made a positive statement.

Really man? That isn't what he meant by "positive statement." He isn't saying you don't have to prove something as long as your the one saying nice things about it. He is making valid points and saying that the burden of proof is, as it should be, on the individuals that want to CHANGE the way the game currently is. The people that think the game is fine as is don't have to prove anything, because they are already getting what they want. Where is the evidence that the game is broken? Just because you and some other posters say so isn't evidence, it is an opinion, one that isn't shared by all. Most of the people complaining that the game is broken rarely state a legitimate case as to why that is, it usually consist of a particular pilot, upgrade, ship, etc. That they are unhappy with, but that others have found legitimate ways of dealing with. If the argument is that there are imbalances that FFG should continue to work to balance out as they have then I'm sure most would agree with that. If imbalances are what constitutes broken to some in a miniatures game, then those people probably shouldn't play miniatures games. Broken or in need of fixing is not playable without changes. If FFG stops all development on X-wing immediately what make x-wing unplayable?

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4 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I'd argue it's the biggest mistake full stop. As bad as it was, the Phantom could still be hard countered (it didn't actually take off in my local area because a few of the core players brought nothing but VI Han to events until people got the point), and once it was nerfed it stayed down for quite a while before stabilising into a relatively healthy role in the overall meta. The Jumpmaster, meanwhile, has seen one of its builds nerfed twice, and not only is that build still performing but almost every other competitive Scum build features one or more.

I think this is a bit misleading. Most Scum competitive builds don't want 'a Jumpmaster', they want Manaroo's ability so IMO currently the prevalence of Jumpmasters in Scum competitive builds has very little to do with any qualities of the ship itself. If you put Manaroo's ability on something else, then that would be the most prevalent Scum ship.

Also, apart from Marcel Mazano, has anyone really had any major success with U-boats post nerf?

That being said, personally I think Jumpmaster is an outstandingly well designed package in itself. It's a ship that supports a variety of playstyles (Dengar plays completely different from Manaroo and both from the Scout for example) and has no dud pilots (Tel is the worst, and he's at least in the top half of the power curve). Problem is that, when most other ships have 1 viable pilot and playstyle if you're lucky, it stands out as something too good.

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45 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Also, apart from Marcel Mazano, has anyone really had any major success with U-boats post nerf?

I made top 4 in my regional with mindlinked uboats, and came really close to winning my top 4 match.  If I had, I'm pretty sure I'd have won my final match as well (had already beat the other guy in swiss)

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9 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

If X-wing was limited to Pilots that had a major role in the movies this would be the most boring game in the world...

 

Embrace the Scum.... you know you want to ;)

 

And as for the imperial pilots.........

Last time I checked this game was set in the Star Wars Universe, not the Star Wars movies..

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