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The Future of the Expanded Universe (Legends) in X-Wing Miniatures

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4 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

 On both counts, the EU had to go, and go it did, and that's really all there is to it.

 

Except I wouldn't even say it's "gone".  It's been pushed back to say it might be true, one day.  Or, a better version of it might be true.  I'm more than happy with that.  

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10 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Important disclaimer: the only EU material I have first hand experience with is the Thrawn books, which I read because they were held up as the gold standard of EU content.  To be charitable, they are mediocre.  If the Thrawn books are significantly lower quality than the rest of the EU then my view is incorrect, but that doesn't fit with anything I've been told by EU fans or critics alike, so there you go.

 

Hehe, I thought I was alone in this. Never liked those books, and figured if that really was the best the EU had to offer, I should stay away from the rest.

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3 hours ago, Xerandar said:

Star War's EU was more about the gaming experience.  The book and other content were generally hack jobs revolving around the same boring and tired memes.  Boring and tired memes that were used in TFA...

Well luckily, TFA was aimed at people who hadn't had the time to go through all of that enough to have the memes get boring and tired.

 

Also, why should my enjoyment of a movie depend on a game released 10+ years ago and which looks (by modern standards) rubbish? If I can even figure out how to play it on a modern system?

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This thread is getting away from the main topic: The future of EU ships in the game.

Considering that EU ships still regularly appear in other FFG material (as has been pointed out by others) I would say that no EU ship can be reasonably ruled out for future expansions.

I actually prefer mostly canon waves but I definitely 'get' why some people would prefer more old EU content.  When I first picked up the game (back in wave 3) I was sooo excited to go into the game store and see that I could fly the HWK from Dark Forces.  Then I put it on the table...

I grew up playing lucas arts games.  I read Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy and the Dark Empire comics and all that great stuff.  But I also recognize that Star Wars is a lot of things to a lot of different people and that brands have to change and adapt to stay relevant.

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I think any ship that isn't in anything canon will take a back seat to ships that are.  Not that I think FFG/Lucas will be against it.  Just that they are coming out with a lot of new stuff.  There is a movie every year.  There is a tv show.  There are comics.  These things will most likely produce the most amount of new content.  Now...they can dip into the Legends and re-use stuff, but I'm not sure if they will have time to pull out of Legends if it isn't in a new thing as there are so many new things coming.  

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13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think any ship that isn't in anything canon will take a back seat to ships that are.  Not that I think FFG/Lucas will be against it.  Just that they are coming out with a lot of new stuff.  There is a movie every year.  There is a tv show.  There are comics.  These things will most likely produce the most amount of new content.  Now...they can dip into the Legends and re-use stuff, but I'm not sure if they will have time to pull out of Legends if it isn't in a new thing as there are so many new things coming.  

Understood and I agree

the assault gunboat being an exception, of course. Even if they're star viper bad I'd buy three. 

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37 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

This thread is getting away from the main topic: The future of EU ships in the game.

Considering that EU ships still regularly appear in other FFG material (as has been pointed out by others) I would say that no EU ship can be reasonably ruled out for future expansions.

I'm sure they'll continue to prefer new ships to EU ones, but there will always be exceptions.  With the Scurrg in Armada, that looks like a safe bet for X-Wing sooner or later.  And I really hope that the EU/Legends origin of some already-released ships won't count against them for the purposes of getting fixes.  StarViper and Khiraxxxx seem likely to be targeted, but I'd still like to see something done for E-Wings.

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6 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I was reading the books alone.   Yes.  I think that's completely acceptable.  Why do I have to go find some game with ancient technology to play to read the books?  If the success of a book requires the playing of a video game to succeed, then it's failed.  The books should stand on their own merit.

What have I read?  The Thrawn Trilogy, Bounty Hunter Wars, tried to read the Rogue Squadron series, but couldn't get 1/2 way through the first book.  I read the one with Xizor.  I know there are a few more, but they escape me at the moment. The best of all of them was the Thrawn Trilogy.  You stated it was "fantastic".  I won't give it that much credit.  It was enjoyable, but could be better written.  These books were just OK.  They weren't that great.  I didn't read them in my youth and am reading them as an adult.  I think you are looking back too fondly and tying in all your love of Star Wars as a kid into making it better than it was.  

You talk about wanting to "shove" in the original cast for maximum profit and I think you are wrong.  I think it's for maximum success of the Star Wars effort.  I think it was in danger after Ep 1-3.  Yes, Ep 7 was a repeat of the original, but they stated they were trying to make it as close to the original as possible many times before released.  Their goal was to have a movie that didn't suck and they were going to try to recapture as much of the original as possible.  They needed to save the franchise or it would whither with another bad movie.  They made an OK new movie.  That was their goal.  It worked.  To then want to build on what people want is considered a money grab?  You don't see Disney branching beyond that?  What about the other major project they have, Rebels tv show?  That's totally new people, with a few cameos from the movies and a couple of pull ins from Clone Wars.  I don't think you are giving them enough credit.  

You say Disney is "twisting" the EU when I say it is massaging it to make it fit better and make more sense with a coherent story.  I'm OK with that.  You say that they are trimming details.  Well....how long has the EU been out and how many books have there been?  How long has Disney had to put out new stuff?  I think they are making great progress with new books and movies.  Give them some time to get stuff out!   You want them to jump to Old Republic and stuff?  You think they won't eventually get there?  Disney is going to crank out new Star Wars stuff for a generation, at least.  

 
 
 
 

Firstly, I never meant to imply that you had to play any of the video games.  Secondly, the most ancient technology you'd need is any type of semi-modern computer to play the vast majority of those games on, if you had the inclination to experience them.  Thirdly, the success of a book does not require playing a game.  What I was bringing up was that the games themselves also have rich stories that are at the same level of importance as the books.  The books and games both stand on their own merits, but combined they continue to build the Star Wars Universe.

To your next paragraph, as I stated at the end of my last comment, individualistic opinions have no weight in this conversation, except that there are numerous people such as myself who did enjoy the EU.  What gives Disney, or any individual, the right to tell fans that their stories are how it really happened?  Maximum success for Star Wars simply translates into maximum profit for Disney.  I honestly don't see Disney branching far beyond that, because if that is what they really cared to do then they could have done it already.  The EU, for all its flaws that people are quick to point out, gave a VASTLY superior number of stories that did not have to re-make anything that the films had done.

Your last paragraph about giving Disney more time to make better content, again, they would have been making strides with new stories were it not for their desire to slap the original cast back onto a movie poster.  So far Disney has taken millions of steps backwards, only to move several inches forward.  They shouldn't eventually get to the Old Republic, they should have been there to begin with.  While that is my personal opinion, in reality they should have started anywhere within the EU that didn't discount the stories that other fans enjoyed.   

6 hours ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Important disclaimer: the only EU material I have first hand experience with is the Thrawn books, which I read because they were held up as the gold standard of EU content.  To be charitable, they are mediocre.  If the Thrawn books are significantly lower quality than the rest of the EU then my view is incorrect, but that doesn't fit with anything I've been told by EU fans or critics alike, so there you go.

There are three ways Disney could handle the EU:

1. The EU is forbidden and never to be mentioned again because Disney hates you.  Yes, you.

2. Creators can take what they like but aren't restricted by the EU.

3. Creators are restricted by the EU.

How does (3) help their business? 

And I'm sorry, but the restrictions imposed by maintaining consistency with all of the EU is incredibly relevant.  The EU is a massive pile of content, much of which is (by everyone's admission) not very good.  Just maintaining consistency with it at all is a job of work, and if you don't put in that effort, then you're in case (2) anyway.  If I'm a Hollywood film-maker, and I have the option of either making the best Star Wars movie I can, or the best Star Wars movie I can within the restrictions of everything defined in the EU canon, good and bad and god-awfully not-thought-out, why would I choose the latter?  If I'm a novelist, why am I going to be constrained by decisions made by a third-rate comic book writer a long time ago when much less money and interest was on the line?  

Anyway, I think I'm done piling on here.  People who are still defending the EU are emotionally invested in it and are responding on that basis.  Which is fine, nothing wrong with that.  There are lots of things that I'm emotionally invested in because of who I was at the time or what was going on in my life, which if I were to come upon fresh today, wouldn't engage me the same way.  But being emotionally invested in something doesn't mean that keeping it is an objectively good decision, either from a creative or a financial perspective.  On both counts, the EU had to go, and go it did, and that's really all there is to it.

 

 
 
 
 

Your three avenues for Disney to handle the EU are incredibly narrow-minded.  I also don't see how far off the current situation is with the EU regarding your first viewpoint.  The problem I have tried to point out is that the EU IS forbidden for other creators to contribute to.  Is Disney still printing out the Legends books and selling the old games?  Yes, they are.  Can anyone currently continue adding to those stories and make sequels to those games?  No, they can't.  All they can do is grab scraps and paste them into Disney's new "official" timeline.

Also, "by everyone's admission?"  Please define everyone for me, because I for one do not "admit" that the EU wasn't good.  I again return to my previous statement, no company or individual has the right to do away with stories, history, and creations of any kind simply based on personal opinion.  That goes far beyond Star Wars, but this franchise is the most prominent case of the difficulties members of a community are facing to keep their history alive and well. 

I've also stated multiple times that I understand that creators don't want to be constricted by the lore of the EU, so to solve that they simply could have made any number of Infinity story lines, or created an "alternate" series of content.

If Disney was to simply categorize their work as an alternate timeline, and allow authors and game developers to continue making content based on the EU, while Disney went about whatever they wanted to do with their new timeline, then every member of the Star Wars community could be equally represented.  Fans such as myself would not need to feel forced to become involved in canon that does away with aspects we have treasured.  

I don't believe I've ever said that Disney's new lore is worthless.  Repetitive and unoriginal, yes.  But I understand as well as anyone that fans want to see the original cast on screen.  I understand the desire for new films and shows.  I want to enjoy these pieces of work in some form, but I can not because they are removing value from the EU, not just in its lore, but within the Star Wars community as a whole.  I don't frankly care whether someone agrees with me that the EU was good or bad.  What I care about is the future of the EU, and it has every right to be continued by those who wish to do so.  Disney has the right to create their own stories however they see fit.  They do not have the right to tell all fans that their work is better than whatever books or games they've experienced in the past.  Every part of the EU has the right to be not only preserved but continued.  Again, personal opinion is not the focus of my arguments.  The right for creative works to be built upon by those who wish to do so is what's important to me.

So with all that, I'll give you my personal list of ways Disney could have handled the EU in a more open manner:

1. Disney could have labelled all their new content with a title signifying it is an alternate take on the EU in a similar way they have done so with Legends.  Next, they could have given control over the EU to an independent company comprised of fans and creators.  This gives Disney all the breathing room they want to make any stories they want to see, while also allowing the EU community to continue their stories and characters without confusion.  Both categories would be labelled in a similar manner that is done now, so those seeking the history of the EU can easily find those stories, and those seeking Disney's take on the Star Wars universe can find those stories.

2. Disney could have made a new trilogy with new characters and new stories, taking place anywhere from The Old Republic era to the Vong War.  Through talented writing and story telling, they could have added to the EU while also introducing new fans to the EU at the same time.  The Old Republic era especially could have opened the door for new generations of Star Wars fans.

3.  If Disney did not want to do any of the above, and still wanted to make their new lore the official canon, then they could have simply retold stories that already existed through the new movies, without the need of splitting the EU from official canon.  Disney has done extraordinarily little to truly separate their stories from what already existed in the first place, so, therefore they could have taken the stories in full and introduced new audiences to the EU with new movies, while also cleaning up aspects of the EU that conflicted with each other.

4. Disney could have simply gone to The Old Republic era and never even touched the EU beyond that time period.  This creates no need for splitting the community and also creates no need for them to try to organize every detail of the EU to fit properly together, or for them to simply re-organize bits from the EU into their own cohesive canon as they are doing now.

Anyone one of these options, along with numerous others, could have been done by Disney.  Each is inclusive of fans of the EU in a way that does not leave the EU behind collecting dust.  Each avenue gives freedom for creators to continue their contributions to the EU, or Disney's new canon.  I can not understand why any of the following were not done as opposed to the system that has been created now.

I also believe that this conversation hasn't been far off the track of what I originally posted.  We've established that ships will likely make a return if Disney chooses to incorporate them into the new lore, and we've also highlighted ships that should make a return.  I believe a discussion about the lore itself is just as important.  All of the factors that I have laid out in my responses to comments contribute to why I want to see more EU ships make a return to X-Wing Miniatures.  It's important to recognize that for myself and other fans of the EU, bringing back that universe is very important to many of us.  It should be allowed to be contributed to, and those who want to see that content continued can continue to enjoy the rich history of the EU.  Those who dislike it have Disney's take on Star Wars to look to.  Everyone should be represented equally.  Equal representation, or the potential for equal representation across content like X-Wing Miniatures, is what I want to see.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

And I really hope that the EU/Legends origin of some already-released ships won't count against them for the purposes of getting fixes.  StarViper and Khiraxxxx seem likely to be targeted, but I'd still like to see something done for E-Wings.

I think it makes them less likely for them to be included in aces packs or the companion to epics. At least for Rebels and Imperials. For Scum the Scyk is obviously coming as the companion ship with the C-ROC, but then there's not really a Scum small base that needs help that's not also EU so shouldn't effect them.

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5 minutes ago, CosmicCastawayA90 said:

Firstly, I never meant to imply that you had to play any of the video games.  Secondly, the most ancient technology you'd need is any type of semi-modern computer to play the vast majority of those games on, if you had the inclination to experience them.  Thirdly, the success of a book does not require playing a game.  What I was bringing up was that the games themselves also have rich stories that are at the same level of importance as the books.  The books and games both stand on their own merits, but combined they continue to build the Star Wars Universe.

To your next paragraph, as I stated at the end of my last comment, individualistic opinions have no weight in this conversation, except that there are numerous people such as myself who did enjoy the EU.  What gives Disney, or any individual, the right to tell fans that their stories are how it really happened?  Maximum success for Star Wars simply translates into maximum profit for Disney.  I honestly don't see Disney branching far beyond that, because if that is what they really cared to do then they could have done it already.  The EU, for all its flaws that people are quick to point out, gave a VASTLY superior number of stories that did not have to re-make anything that the films had done.

Your last paragraph about giving Disney more time to make better content, again, they would have been making strides with new stories were it not for their desire to slap the original cast back onto a movie poster.  So far Disney has taken millions of steps backwards, only to move several inches forward.  They shouldn't eventually get to the Old Republic, they should have been there to begin with.  While that is my personal opinion, in reality they should have started anywhere within the EU that didn't discount the stories that other fans enjoyed.   

Your hatred of Disney is strong.  I think it interferes with how you see things.

Disney didn't take a million steps backwards.  They didn't erase the EU.  They simply put it in a category that says it's true...until it's not true.   In other words, they aren't flushing all the EU.  They might come out with stuff that contradicts it in the future.  That is a huge difference.  So, it's not like Disney is tell fans "how it really happened".  I think you just want to hate on Disney and the idea that not everything will be the same as might have been when you were a kid.  

Also, Disney bought a gold mine.  They will mine that gold until it is dry and done.  They will mine every nook and cranny for worth.  Why do you think they won't go to the Old Republic?  Because they didn't start there?!?!?!?  I mean, there were 3 more movies to the story that needed to be done.  Lucas set it up as three sets of three.  Everyone's been waiting for Ep 7-9.  You think they wouldn't start there?  You think did "slap the original cast back onto a movie poster"?  That's a very skewed view of finally putting out Ep 7-9 that most people have been waiting a long time for.

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7 minutes ago, CosmicCastawayA90 said:

What gives Disney, or any individual, the right to tell fans that their stories are how it really happened?  Maximum success for Star Wars simply translates into maximum profit for Disney.  I honestly don't see Disney branching far beyond that, because if that is what they really cared to do then they could have done it already.  The EU, for all its flaws that people are quick to point out, gave a VASTLY superior number of stories that did not have to re-make anything that the films had done.

Intellectual property rights, go look it up.

There sure are a lot of EU stories, but quality > quantity and quality is where most of the EU is sorely lacking.

8 minutes ago, CosmicCastawayA90 said:

I can not understand why any of the following were not done as opposed to the system that has been created now

Because for every person such as yourself there are 1000 others who have never heard of anything or anyone from the EU. They're buying tickets and merchandising because they want to see Han Solo, Chewie, and Luke "Obi Wan v2" Skywalker along with Emo Vader Jr. and Femme Luke Jr. Your suggestions are, to put it mildly... naive.

15 minutes ago, CosmicCastawayA90 said:

Everyone should be represented equally.

Why? Frankly based on the proportion of people familiar with the EU in any way shape or form compared to those who aren't I'd say your viewpoint is being vastly over represented.

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

They didn't erase the EU.  They simply put it in a category that says it's true...until it's not true.   In other words, they aren't flushing all the EU.  They might come out with stuff that contradicts it in the future.  That is a huge difference.  So, it's not like Disney is tell fans "how it really happened"

I disagree with this.  Telling fans "how it really happened" is *exactly* what disney is doing by saying "that stuff is all 'legends' and this is the actual canon."  They didn't put it in a category that says it's "true...until it's not true".  They did exactly the opposite, they DID flush the entire EU and put it in a category that says "It's not true...unless we make it true."  This is evidenced by TFA wiping out basically everything that happened post-ROTJ in the EU.  Most of those stories literally cannot be "true" given the events of TFA.  Jacen and Jaina don't exist.  Anakin solo doesn't exist.  Han and leia haven't been (mostly) happily married since shortly after RotJ until beyond where the old EU ended.  Mara (from what we've seen) doesn't seem to exist, but if she does, she and luke sure don't seem to be happily married.  Similarly, Rogue One wiped out the EU version of how the Death Star came to be and replaced it with Galen Erso (which I won't complain about at all, rogue one was awesome).

I'm in the camp that loves the old EU, but I also understand WHY disney made the decision they did, and don't fault them for it, it makes the most sense for them as a company planning to release new movies every year to not be constrained by 40+ years of expanded universe.  But that doesn't change that your above statement is just...wrong.

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14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I disagree with this.  Telling fans "how it really happened" is *exactly* what disney is doing by saying "that stuff is all 'legends' and this is the actual canon."  They didn't put it in a category that says it's "true...until it's not true".  They did exactly the opposite, they DID flush the entire EU and put it in a category that says "It's not true...unless we make it true."  This is evidenced by TFA wiping out basically everything that happened post-ROTJ in the EU.  Most of those stories literally cannot be "true" given the events of TFA.  Jacen and Jaina don't exist.  Anakin solo doesn't exist.  Han and leia haven't been (mostly) happily married since shortly after RotJ until beyond where the old EU ended.  Mara (from what we've seen) doesn't seem to exist, but if she does, she and luke sure don't seem to be happily married.  Similarly, Rogue One wiped out the EU version of how the Death Star came to be and replaced it with Galen Erso (which I won't complain about at all, rogue one was awesome).

Everything is true, until it's not.   All the things you mentioned that then didn't happen weren't because Disney said it's all Legends.  They said it's untrue because they re-write the story for the movies.  So, it's all true...until it's not.

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6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Everything is true, until it's not.   All the things you mentioned that then didn't happen weren't because Disney said it's all Legends.  They said it's untrue because they re-write the story for the movies.  So, it's all true...until it's not.

Given that TFA alone invalidated probably more than half of the EU, I'm gonna still go with no it's not.  It's not true until they say it is.  Thrawn is back (but not going to be exactly the same as in the EU, they've already changed stuff for him), TIE Defender is back, etc, but way more is invalidated than has been added back.

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2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

On the bright side, it only invalidated the bad half of the EU...

I happen to disagree.  I love a lot of the post-rotj EU, and couldn't care less about most of the clone wars and republic stuff that came out after the prequels

Edited by VanderLegion

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1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

I happen to disagree.  I love a lot of the post-rotj EU, and couldn't care less about most of the clone wars and republic stuff that came out after the prequels

WOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Nelly!  Who said anything about the prequels?  As far as I'm concerned, the prequels don't exist.  Nothing good ever came from them.

Except the Auralnauts stuff, of course.

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31 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Nelly!  Who said anything about the prequels?  As far as I'm concerned, the prequels don't exist.  Nothing good ever came from them.

Except the Auralnauts stuff, of course.

I didn't say the prequels were good :P.  But if you cut out everything from post-ROTJ, you're pretty much left with the stuff that came out after the prequels that focuses on the republic and the clone wars, etc.  Plus the ancient old republic stuff (KotOR ftw)

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Quote

I've also stated multiple times that I understand that creators don't want to be constricted by the lore of the EU, so to solve that they simply could have made any number of Infinity story lines, or created an "alternate" series of content.

Sure.  Why would they?

I mean, what is Disney's motivation to do this?  Doing any or all of these things has downsides (opportunity costs, intellectual property issues, brand dilution, etc etc etc).  At a bare minimum, it's more work than what they're doing now.  What's their motivation?  The complete practical downside to not doing it, that I can see, is that you have a handful fewer people complaining on internet forums that nobody at Disney is going to read anyway.  Since the quantity of internet forum complaining will never reach 0 until the heat-death of the universe, they might as well just use the property the way they like.

My statement was true, though, even if you wish to deride it as narrow-minded.  The two questions Disney needed to answer were: are you able to use the EU, and, are you required to respect the EU?  Their answer of 'yes' and 'no' is about as generous as anyone could ask for.  

Expecting more than that is profoundly unrealistic.  

 

Quote

Also, "by everyone's admission?"  Please define everyone for me, because I for one do not "admit" that the EU wasn't good.  I again return to my previous statement, no company or individual has the right to do away with stories, history, and creations of any kind simply based on personal opinion. 

1. Is there anything I can read which is significantly better than the Thrawn books?  Let me know, and I'll find a copy and give it a go.  I don't have the time or inclination to play computer games so I'd have to take your word on those.

2. They aren't doing away with anything, all your books and comics and games are still there.  Deciding to de-canonize them as Disney has done, OTOH, is absolutely something they have the right to do.  As a fan, you own precisely nothing about Star Wars.  Sorry.

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59 minutes ago, voltagejim said:

I'd be happy with these ships from the EU added:

 

I-7 Howlrunner

A-9 Vigilance

Slave 2

Shadow Droid

Assault Gunboat

TIE Avenger

Skipray Blastboat

Scimatar assault bomber

I'll add the Muy'til fighter, Chiss clawcraft, Tie Droid, and the Preybird and I'd say it's a pretty good list. Make it happen, FFG. I'll take 4 of each. :)

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1 hour ago, voltagejim said:

I'd be happy with these ships from the EU added:

 

I-7 Howlrunner

A-9 Vigilance

Slave 2

Shadow Droid

Assault Gunboat

TIE Avenger

Skipray Blastboat

Scimatar assault bomber

The Howlrunner!!! I totally forgot about that one. It's now third on my most wanted list

Gunboat

Skipray

Howlrunner  

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