Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
xanderf

Do command tokens unbalance the game in favor of MSUs?

Recommended Posts

After a few matches playing against a 'swarm' of CR90s, the difference in how the command tokens work on my star destroyers vs the CR90s seemed pretty stark.

At least, beyond the 'engineering' token (which works fine).

The difference in squadron commands was particularly acute - between dial vs token, I lose 75% of my effectiveness.  A CR90 loses...0% of its effectiveness.  It activates exactly one squadron, whether it's using a dial or token.  Three of them activate three squadrons...dial or token.  No loss at all.

This value disparity in tokens plays out with the concentrate fire command, too - at long range, the CR90 using a concentrate fire token is re-rolling 50% of its dice.  While an ISD only re-rolls 25% for the same token.  And this, especially, scales badly for the ISD.  Against 3x CR90s, the enemy throws 6 red dice and re-rolls 3 of them (if each ship uses a token).  I'm still just re-rolling one.

Not saying 'ZOMG MSU IS OP, PLS NERF', but the usage of these tokens does feel a lot stronger for the MSU list vs the ISD list (for example), which is doubly odd given how much further in advance the ISD has to plan things out (IE., that the 'token' vs of the command is so much stronger for an MSU list is almost irrelevant, since they are drawing new commands every turn, anyway...).  Not a big thing, perhaps, but it does feel...I dunno, weird.

Of course, the game is a few years old - surely folks have tried the con fire and squadron tokens as 'scaling' values like the eng tokens, rather than a flat '1' value that does not scale?  (IE., squadron token activates at 50% of squadron rating, con fire token at...say...I dunno, maybe reroll a number of dice equal to 50% of command rating) 

There is obviously a lot going on that makes MSU lists different from large-ship lists, and this is a pretty small part.  But it does FEEL weird how these tokens work.  Would such a change help counter some of the disadvantages of low-activation lists against MSU lists?

Edited by xanderf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess my response would be it might not be that skewed? For your example, yeah a single CR90 is rerolling 25% more of its dice for the same command, but you are also throwing 100% more dice with the ISD than that CR90 is. The other think to consider is the fact that the CR90 can only hold a single token, while the ISD can hold three, and potentially use multiple tokens per turn. If that CR90 is holding on to a concentrate fire token rather than a navigate token, it probably isn't going to entirely avoid your more dangerous arcs, and will likely go pop the next turn. At medium range, everything but a truly terrible roll is going to kill that CR90, while that CR90 is likely going to just take a good chunk of shields off of the ISD.  

IF you are having issues against MSU lists, I would try to examine and analyze your deployment and  play a bit. If a CR90 is holding on to a concentrate fire token to use instead of a navigate, then maybe you need to improve your threat to it. Keeping a con fire token over a navigate means that the CR90 likely has to have a navigate command ready, or it is sitting in medium range of your ISD, and it should be dead next turn. 

Just my two cents on it. I feel as though the game and token interaction is balanced, and it promotes proper planning and having the right command ready at the right time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Card Knight said:

For your example, yeah a single CR90 is rerolling 25% more of its dice for the same command, but you are also throwing 100% more dice with the ISD than that CR90 is. 

Keep in mind, point for point 3 cr90s have more hit points and more combined firepower than 1 ISD.  You also get more activations. 

Large ships are at an inbuilt disadvantage in Armada.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

Keep in mind, point for point 3 cr90s have more hit points and more combined firepower than 1 ISD.  You also get more activations. 

Large ships are at an inbuilt disadvantage in Armada.

But cost more than an ISD. And even just this past weekend, the top two lists had large ships. One had two ISDs. Couple of weeks ago had a MC80HO win a regional. 

I would re-iterate that it can come down in large part to deployment and activation order. You move a ship the previous round to threaten a CR90 and push it in to your dangerous ISD front arc. If this doesn't happen, then your ISD is out of position and maybe you need to work at that. I don't think you can accurately compare 3 CR90s to a single ISD. 

There is no doubt that it can take practice to play large ships well. Planning the right command three turns ahead takes practice and being able to see the board state that far ahead of time can be difficult as well. Planning what you can expect to kill, what will likely be dead of yours, where your ships will be, where you anticipate your enemies ships will be, what commands they have, etc...

I would argue that Large ships are not at a disadvantage in Armada. They just take practice, like anything in this game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Card Knight said:

But cost more than an ISD. And even just this past weekend, the top two lists had large ships. One had two ISDs. Couple of weeks ago had a MC80HO win a regional. 

I would re-iterate that it can come down in large part to deployment and activation order. You move a ship the previous round to threaten a CR90 and push it in to your dangerous ISD front arc. If this doesn't happen, then your ISD is out of position and maybe you need to work at that. I don't think you can accurately compare 3 CR90s to a single ISD. 

There is no doubt that it can take practice to play large ships well. Planning the right command three turns ahead takes practice and being able to see the board state that far ahead of time can be difficult as well. Planning what you can expect to kill, what will likely be dead of yours, where your ships will be, where you anticipate your enemies ships will be, what commands they have, etc...

I would argue that Large ships are not at a disadvantage in Armada. They just take practice, like anything in this game. 

Equal skill with 3 cr90s (bare) to 1 ISD (bare) the corvettes will win.  The activations advantage with higher hull and higher damage output with higher maneuverability will take down that ISD. 

They can easily outflank and avoid the front arc long enough to ping down shields and then sit in the back.

 

Also, 3 cr90b cost 117 an ISDII is 120.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with that comparison is that you're not only comparing apples to oranges, you're trying to do it in a ball pit. There are so many variations on how that works out, it's impossible to do a direct run comparison without a scenario or context. For example, 3 bare CR90B's attacking a single bare ISDII: The CR90B is medium range only on all sides, which means the ISD will have approach shots from long range which can ping off a shield or two on the way in. The CR90 wants to fire from the front, where most of it's firepower is. Ideally it wants to double arc, but that still means it needs to be in medium range when it fires, which means the return shots from the ISD will be ever more effective. Even coming from the side, the ISD has a very wide front arc that has a decent chance of catching at least one of your ships at medium range - 8 dice vs a Corvette can be an OTK, I've done it several times. The ISD may have fewer HP than the collective HP of the CR90s, but if the ISD takes 5 to the hull, it's firepower isn't cut by a third, and it can still repair.
If the CR90s come in screaming at speed 4, they'll only really get a shot or two before they're gone again. Now, that might seem great in terms of flanking, but they don't exactly U-turn at that speed, and the ISD only really needs to slowly realign. Heck, it can repair for days while you're coming around, and then you're back to square one. If the CR90s are orbit strafing, they're going to regularly miss front arc shots due to the angle unless they're going slowly enough to hog in, which leaves them exposed. If they're orbit strafing, you're pretty much always looking at one ship taking a front arc shot. A

There's all this, and more, to take into account. It can't just be seen as "they can move faster. Also HP". It'd be lovely if we could analyse things in an "all things being equal" vacuum, but one of the great aspects of this game is that everything has strengths and weaknesses, not only inherently, but also in any given situation. All of my argument in favour of the ISD above can be nullified by saying the CR90s are chasing the ISD. Similarly, all of the CR90s arguments can be nullified by saying the ISD is skirting the board edge.

 

I don't think there's an inherent disadvantage in large ships in the game, but I do think they struggle with value. Certain upgrades do help with that, but they themselves are an investment in both cost and opportunity. Wulff Yularen on an ISD gives that ship an immediate spike in capability with a suite of tokens stacked up. Ditto Tarkin and Aresko. Rebels aren't slouches here either, with Leia, Garm, etc. The question becomes less "why do my CR90s get to activate double the squadrons with a token?" and more "how broken would it be if a VSD could activate 8 squadrons?", or even "why am I activating squadrons with my CR90?".
Squadrons are the biggest difference in value, since the token is an arbitrary 1, where engineering is half the value and CF is an entirely different effect (it doesn't matter if you're throwing 8 dice or 2, it's still a reroll). If anything large ships benefit more from the nav token than small ships do, since spending that can represent a change in up to half their speed, and it's considerably more difficult to organise that mid-game. Let's play devil's advocate here for a moment and say the squadron command token should act in the same manner as the engineering token - half the value, rounded up. A VSD - which is already a solid carrier ship choice - could activate 6 squadrons, and ISD up to 7. Worse still, a Gozanti could 5 (this assumes Expanded Hanger Bays in all examples). In theory, your bomber swarm wouldn't need more than a pair of Gozantis to toss most of the damage in two activations. Heck, if it's next to an ISD, it could toss it all in a single round. I hear regular complaints about the balance of squadrons as it is, without having to listen to someone moan about how their opponents can activate 7x Decimators in one turn.

As for CF, a reroll is a reroll. I'm not fully sure a 3 command ship getting a second reroll from the token (half value, rounded up) would be a game breaker, but it might be a bit much on 2 command ships (and it hurts me to say that, given my love of the Interdictor, and my wish that it had reliable rerolls). Half value, rounded down, to a minimum of 1, maybe? Generally 3 command ships have enough shenanigans packed in that they don't really rely on CF token rerolls anyway, so I'm not sure it'd be a buff to them so much as a convenience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dex makes a lot of the points in defense of large ships. Also bear in mind that large ships are more efficient upgrade platforms: you're getting much more out of Flight Controllers or XI7 on an ISD than on a Raider/Nebulon respectively. When a single Leading Shots can affect 1/3 of your list's point value, you're getting a lot more bang for your buck than if it's only affecting 1/10 of it on a CR90B.

Also, with respect to squadrons, consider the value of single large squadron activations vs several smaller ones. Alpha strikes are a big deal in the squadron game, making a single 6-squadron activation off an ISD1 worth much more than 3x2-squadron activations off of three CR90's.

Edited by Ardaedhel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Also, with respect to squadrons, consider the value of single large squadron activations vs several smaller ones. Alpha strikes are a big deal in the squadron game, making a single 6-squadron activation off an ISD1 worth much more than 3x2-squadron activations off of three CR90's.

I totally agree. I have two list with the same 88 points on squadrons. One activate them with an ISD, the other from 2 Gozantis. The first one is able to kill whatever you put in front of it. The second one can't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My dual Glad MSU is 6 ships, with 2 of them being Comms Net, and I frequently wish I had a 3 command ship to take all the tokens on. I have 3 2 command ships, and 3 1 command ships. And I get to pass out tokens twice per round, so no, MSU do not benefit from having a ton of tokens. I frequently question the usage of having so many tokens, but I also realize they do have some value for Glads and Arqs. The real problem is keeping my token count low so I can maximize the usage from the Comms Net. Since most of my ships will start with a Nav and take the token, that means going into round 2, I am at 6/9 token slots filled. And once we get fighting, my ships speed up so it makes it harder to keep the Comms Net alive and in range.

Also,  why are you comparing the tokens on an ISD to a CR90? How are the CR90s getting tokens? Are they forgoing their dials to take it? That sounds good to me. Is there a Comms Net following them passing tokens? Even better! Their large ship is not getting any tokens. Where as the ISD will have a fairly good chance of a Comms Net following it passing tokens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The single biggest advantage that MSU has over large ships is the activation count and being able to move those ships to significant advantage over 2-3 activation large ship lists.

I haven't noticed any particular gains where tokens are concerned. The one possible exception to that is CF with TRC's making damage output highly consistent at burning down defense tokens on large ships. Three to four damage cannot be ignored and so repeated 5+ times can really go to town on a large ship that lacks the correct support.

Combined with activation advantage allowing you to position the MSU ships to strike already weakened hull zones, this makes for a potent combination. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Equal skill with 3 cr90s (bare) to 1 ISD (bare) the corvettes will win.  The activations advantage with higher hull and higher damage output with higher maneuverability will take down that ISD. 

They can easily outflank and avoid the front arc long enough to ping down shields and then sit in the back.

 

Also, 3 cr90b cost 117 an ISDII is 120.

4 Assault Goz is 112 points, more hull than an ISD and all of them with CF can toss 8 reds collectively. 
5 Combat Retrofit GR-75s is 120 points, more hull than an ISD, and all of them with CF can toss 10 blues collectively. 
 

They have activation advantage, and are more maneuverable, and I'd say have the best defense tokens at long range. But do we ever see these being run? No, because people would rather have a large ship as the center of their fleet. 

In regards to CR90s vs an ISD, here are some raw, average numbers:

No defense tokens are being used since.

3 CR90A vs 1 ISD II
Medium range: 6.75 vs 6
Double arc medium range: 11.25 vs 9
Long range: 4.5 vs 3
Double arc long range: 6.75 vs 4.5

3 CR90B vs 1 ISD II
Medium range: 6.75 vs 6
Double arc medium range: 11.25 vs 9
Long range: 0 vs 3
Double arc long range: 0 vs 4.5

So yes, 3 CR90s can deal more damage than an ISD every round. But that ISD also has the ability to 1 shot a CR90 at medium on an average attack roll. Being able to manage all 3 ships, keeping them in range and outside the front arc of the ISD can be hard. And if you have an equally skilled opponent, the chances you you being able to utilize every CR90 is slim. I do think the CR90s have an advantage is taking the shots from the ISD at long range. There is a .5 chance to roll an Acc on 4 reds, and being able to Redirect an Evade is huge compared to Brace and Redirect.

It is an interesting analysis when you are trying to compare points, but it's not at all realistic of how the game works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

4 Assault Goz is 112 points, more hull than an ISD and all of them with CF can toss 8 reds collectively. 
5 Combat Retrofit GR-75s is 120 points, more hull than an ISD, and all of them with CF can toss 10 blues collectively. 
 

They have activation advantage, and are more maneuverable, and I'd say have the best defense tokens at long range. But do we ever see these being run? No, because people would rather have a large ship as the center of their fleet. 

In regards to CR90s vs an ISD, here are some raw, average numbers:

No defense tokens are being used since.

3 CR90A vs 1 ISD II
Medium range: 6.75 vs 6
Double arc medium range: 11.25 vs 9
Long range: 4.5 vs 3
Double arc long range: 6.75 vs 4.5

3 CR90B vs 1 ISD II
Medium range: 6.75 vs 6
Double arc medium range: 11.25 vs 9
Long range: 0 vs 3
Double arc long range: 0 vs 4.5

So yes, 3 CR90s can deal more damage than an ISD every round. But that ISD also has the ability to 1 shot a CR90 at medium on an average attack roll. Being able to manage all 3 ships, keeping them in range and outside the front arc of the ISD can be hard. And if you have an equally skilled opponent, the chances you you being able to utilize every CR90 is slim. I do think the CR90s have an advantage is taking the shots from the ISD at long range. There is a .5 chance to roll an Acc on 4 reds, and being able to Redirect an Evade is huge compared to Brace and Redirect.

It is an interesting analysis when you are trying to compare points, but it's not at all realistic of how the game works.

Even if you one shot one cr90, once your in the back, as long as you've maneuvered half decent, you can now sit in the back arc of the ISD with 2 Corvettes.  I'm not going to sit here and say the ISD will never win, first, this is in a vacuum, this game is not played in a vacuum (it's to dark and dusty :D), the ISD SHOULD have both support ships (be it another ISD, or medium ship) and fighter support, this changes the fight drastically.

Large ships however are at a native disadvantage due to numerous game designs.

1: Activation advantage.  This is hands down the biggest disadvantage. If anything, command value should translate to activation, you may pass your activations X times, X being command value.

2: Points to performance.  A Corvette is NOT 1/3 the durability or firepower of an ISD (sliding scale I get it, but Corvettes needed to be the rebel flotillas and raiders the imp flotillas!) right now it's comical how skewed the scale is, this is a MASSIVE nerf to large ships.

3: Tokens, as mentioned prior, the squadron token and CF token favor smaller ships greatly, these tokens needed to be tied to ship values like engineering is.

Overall, large ships in Armada are vastly underpowered in relation to the movies.  This could EASILY be rectified by FFG but they really don't care much about their games outside of profit (see X-Wing and the underperformance of early wave ships.)

You can point to successful tournament lists with large ships, but I'll point to significantly more successful tournament lists without large ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key thing you said is that we don't play in a vacuum.

Armada is really well balanced IMO, and you can win with what you want to win with, if you are skilled, and have a bit of match-up luck.

Give me the ISD 9/10 times against a CR90B swarm if I get to kit out my 400 points.  Give Ard the CR90B Swarm 9/10 times if he can kit his out.

Edit: Also, if Command Tokens were that OP on MSUs, we'd see a ton more MSU Tarkin builds I think.  Raider Tarkin Swarm!

Edited by CaribbeanNinja

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pre-wave one I was the person in my area that rocked the 3 CR90 lists (wasn't the first to try it, but I ran it solid and constantly).  I kept it up a bit in Wave I, and brought it back near the end of wave II.  It is the primary thing I like to run.  In fact, I have trouble running fewer than four or five ships.  I love the lists, but I'd not take 3 naked b's vs an Imp-Deuce, not in a six turn game (not enough time to avoid damage and deal enough to overcome engineering dials).

I will say this, though.  I've found that, yes, the key to running a good CR90 swarm (or any rebel MSU list really) is speed.  Ramp it up a bit at the right time, keep it there until you're in the best position, then slow back down a bit, but DON'T let up on the nav commands unless you're dead certain the CF will pay off both in your shot and in your maneuver.  It really makes my planning pretty easy.  Now, I played Xander in a CC match this past Monday, and I was running Sato with a salvation, a 90-A, 5-90B's, and a slicer team, with a small Z-95 swarm, Tycho, and an X-wing.  He was running Konstantine with an interdictor, two vic-II's, a comms net, and  a swarm of TIE/ln's and interceptors.  Because of Konstantine I knew his fleet had to stay together, so I split and pincered him at high speed (most of my ships started at speed 3).  I got around his flanks, and that was that.  Now, he made a few mistakes with his activation order, but in the end I didn't take a single front arc shot from any of his ships, only lost the Salvation and my unnamed fighters, and killed two big ships (including the interdictor).  Why?  A little because of his mistakes, but mostly through flying (and concentrate fire wasn't bad for me either (I was the attacker)).  Now, it easily could have gone another way if he'd deployed/moved a bit differently and/or activated in a different order, but 8 ships is tough to plan for if you've not fought that before, while I've been flying big MSU lists for over a year.

The point of all that was to say this:  It's ENTIRELY conditional.  This time the objective favored me and my opponent was (seemingly) unused to such a list, and he made one bigger mistake turn four or five (speed-0 on the interdictor).  Next time we meet he may well take me down hard.  I play Mikael all the time, and he's gotten used to fighting my swarms, and just about always beats me with his ISD-II, Int, dual Gozer list.

Really, this is the most balanced miniatures game I've every played, and I've played a decent few.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok cool, so we all agree we don't play Armada in a vacuum. So why was "3 of A is actually better than 1 of B, therefore B is a bad investment" brought up and then proceed to say it's more about skill than the actual numbers?

I still think MSU do not benefit a ton from tokens. CF still isn't great with small batteries. It just feels better because you get to reroll a higher percentage of your attack pool. Rerolling 1 out of 3 feels better than rerolling 1 out of 8. Raymus on a Liberty is great too. Adding a die and rerolling on top of LS is nice.

Squad tokens are the same. There is a huge benefit to running a super carrier and having a squad token. Activating 5-6 squads at a time is far better than 1-3 from a small ship. Unless you're against Rieekan, getting squads off the board before they activate is superior than doing small bits of damage at a time. Point for point, flotillas are the best carrier IMO. EHB or BC and 3-4 squads is amazing. But now we are getting to the point of asking if squad tokens are benefiting small squad values, 1-2, or benefiting ships that can boost their squad value due to EHB like a flotilla. Yavaris is another great example of something that wants to carry a squad token. 3 double taps is fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Equal skill with 3 cr90s (bare) to 1 ISD (bare) the corvettes will win.  The activations advantage with higher hull and higher damage output with higher maneuverability will take down that ISD. 

They can easily outflank and avoid the front arc long enough to ping down shields and then sit in the back.

 

Also, 3 cr90b cost 117 an ISDII is 120.

That is a drastic change in the comparison, since now those CR90s have to be at medium to even do damage, which means they are within medium of an ISD front arc. With careful positioning, one of those is popping that next round. Then you've at least won the game, since you've destroyed something of theirs, and without that third corvette, it'd be pretty unlikely that they'd destroy the ISD, without getting close enough to be severely damaged or destroyed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, shmitty said:

 

 

    All Bottom 1/4 Top 1/2 Top 8 Top 4 Winners
Fleets Containing Large Ships 52% 57% 50% 49% 49% 53%

At least in tournament results, there does not appear to be any significant advantage or disadvantage to playing with a Large ship in your fleet.

 

 

Just went looking for this. Thanks Shmitty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And honestly, look at the mechanic itself.

If Command tokens unbalance the game towards MSU, then Commands unbalance the game towards MSU.

 

Because you're not getting one without the other.  Unless you're being specific about certain Admirals...  And if you'r ebeing specific about Admirals, its not the tokens that are the problem - its the Admirals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Large ships however are at a native disadvantage due to numerous game designs.

1: Activation advantage.  This is hands down the biggest disadvantage. If anything, command value should translate to activation, you may pass your activations X times, X being command value.

2: Points to performance.  A Corvette is NOT 1/3 the durability or firepower of an ISD (sliding scale I get it, but Corvettes needed to be the rebel flotillas and raiders the imp flotillas!) right now it's comical how skewed the scale is, this is a MASSIVE nerf to large ships.

3: Tokens, as mentioned prior, the squadron token and CF token favor smaller ships greatly, these tokens needed to be tied to ship values like engineering is.

Overall, large ships in Armada are vastly underpowered in relation to the movies.  This could EASILY be rectified by FFG but they really don't care much about their games outside of profit (see X-Wing and the underperformance of early wave ships.)

 

I don't think Large ships are at a disadvantage at all.  There might be lists that are the rock the the large ship scissor, but they are far from at a disadvantage.

To your points:

1) Activation Advantage:  I disagree.  It is not a necessarily a big disadvantage.  Sure being able to cherry pick non critical ships to activate first is nice, but that is also why the game has objectives and isn't just "let's kill everything".  Passing doesn't seem like a good idea either as it would add an unnecessary level complexity/book keeping to an already deep/complex system.  And really, what would be the point?  So you could pass until your specific ship had the perfect shot?  Since rules have to be equal, I could see this devolving into multiple turns of "pass", "pass", "pass", etc; until every ship passes and then you're back to the way the game is now.  TL:DR Passing wouldn't add anything positive to the game.

 

2) Points to Performance:  You have to consider everything the ship has to offer; maneuverability, firepower (dice pools and colors), defenses, upgrade slots, command/squadron/engineering values, shields, and hull.  Then you have to think about the rest of the game (upgrades, objectives, etc) and how these ships fit into the grand scope of the game.  If the ISD was exactly 3x the fire power of a CR90B, it would have 9 blue out of it's front arc.  Combine that with a number of ion cannons, turbo-lasers, etc.  It would be completely broken and we'd be having a different conversation.  TL:DR Each ships points are based off more than just it's hull and firepower.

 

3) Token:  Squadron and Concentrate Fire tokens are fine.  CF benefits every size ship.  Sticking to tokens and being able to re-roll a dice, as someone mentioned, a re-roll is a re-roll.  I don't see how having to spend a turn to gain a CF token favors small ships any more than on a large ship.  Squadron tokens, same thing.  Smaller ships have lower squadron values.  In your example, if a squadron token was based off the squadron value like engineering, in the case of 3 CR90B vs ISD, each side could activate 6 squadrons.  As it is right now, the 3 CR90s can activate 6 vs the ISD's 5.  It really isn't a huge difference.  TL:DR Squadron and Concentrate Fire tokens are fine as they provide an equal benefit.

 

Final note:  Larger ships are not under-powered when you consider the overall balance of upgrades and such.  It is all how you kit and fly them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone realize that it comes from a specific point of view?

In fact the benefit for a tokens is exactly the same. The percentage perspective is just a translation of the relation between two number that is completely partial.

What an ISD activate with a squadron token is exactly the same that cr90 does: just one squadron. The 100%squadron value vs 25%squadron value have no point.

The fact that stacking dial and command means +100% of the squadron activation doesn't depend on the token effect rather than on the squadron value.

x+1 is not 2x

x+1=2x as long as x (the squadron value) is 1

But as I said, ISD doesn't suffer a penalty for using tokens. It suffers a penalty for not using dials and this is true even with engineering, navigate or whatever. Tokens are worse as long as you are not using the whole potential of your ship. But this is not a disadvantage of the big ships is just how the world is. The better is something the worse you do if don't take advantage of it. 

Has an ISD an armament disadvantage for those deadly front batteries? No. Of course as long as you don't use those dice you are wasting points. On the other hand the potential of a tiny cr90 is so small that if don't use it as a carrier you won't probably find out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

x+1 is not 2x

x+1=2x as long as x (the squadron value) is 1

So, X+1 IS 2x in this case.

Yes, X is a variable, and large ships are paying significantly more points for a significantly lower variable, this is a blatant inherent advantage given to small ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...