Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
bitva

Is Arrer Boyz and Big 'Uns a legal combo?

Recommended Posts

I basically used my Arrer Boyz to gun down my opponent's entire battlefield (save for units with toughness) a couple of turns last game, because I had a Big 'Uns out, allowing me to continually use the Arrer Boyz without killing them.

But I felt like I was doing something wrong, like it wasn't legal for some reason. Arrer Boyz says that if thier ability is used they TAKE one damage. It all comes down to what TAKE means in the game. If a unit TAKES damage, does that mean it gets assigned, then applied, allowing Big 'Uns to prevent the once-wounded Arrer Boyz to survive their ability infinitely, or does TAKE damage mean the damage is instantly applied, by-passing toughness. Does damage only get assigned, then applied if it's combat damage, or does damage from tactics and other cards get assigned first, then applied as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bitva said:

I basically used my Arrer Boyz to gun down my opponent's entire battlefield (save for units with toughness) a couple of turns last game, because I had a Big 'Uns out, allowing me to continually use the Arrer Boyz without killing them.

But I felt like I was doing something wrong, like it wasn't legal for some reason. Arrer Boyz says that if thier ability is used they TAKE one damage. It all comes down to what TAKE means in the game. If a unit TAKES damage, does that mean it gets assigned, then applied, allowing Big 'Uns to prevent the once-wounded Arrer Boyz to survive their ability infinitely, or does TAKE damage mean the damage is instantly applied, by-passing toughness. Does damage only get assigned, then applied if it's combat damage, or does damage from tactics and other cards get assigned first, then applied as well?

Sounds legit. I agree that having "take 1 damage" added to the fold confuses things. If the wording had been "then deal 1 damage to the Arrer Boyz", clear sailing, Toughness would kick in. Maybe "take" means toughness doesn't kick in? All damage apart from counterstrike is assigned, then applied (CS applied immediately upon assign). Probably need to check for an official word on "take".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you have to remember that the Arrer Boyz don't have that damage protection if they haven't been damaged beforehand. Big 'Uns ONLY give toughness 1 to DAMAGED enemies. Meaning that they have to have at least 1 damage point on them before they get the bonus. So if you were playing them with toughness 1 and they were in perfect health, yeah you were doing it wrong. However, after let's say that they used their ability once their life would be at 2 out of 3 and then would qualify to get toughness 1 from then onwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing going against the combo is that it's ineffective against other units with toughness (any number). However, I still feel 'dirty' using this combo. Being able to dish out 4-5 direct damage on the battlefield on an average turn is harsh. I would also like to say, that the game I used this combo in, I lost (to Dwarves).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10r/rd is a bit much for an Orc deck. And 10 resources for 5 damage is quite ineffective. Get some units or waagh for it and you can blow up the remaining zone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brad Harrington said:

True, but add in a Sadistic Mutation... :)

Except that SM is waiting clarification on whether it works outside combat damage. Dormouse felt that SM doesn't work like Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") and only works when the Unit with SM deals combat damage (is either attacker or defender).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dam said:

 

Except that SM is waiting clarification on whether it works outside combat damage. Dormouse felt that SM doesn't work like Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") and only works when the Unit with SM deals combat damage (is either attacker or defender).

True, some clarification on the difference between "deals damage in combat", "combat damage" and "is damaged during combat" is sorely needed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brad Harrington said:

Dam said:

 

 

Except that SM is waiting clarification on whether it works outside combat damage. Dormouse felt that SM doesn't work like Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") and only works when the Unit with SM deals combat damage (is either attacker or defender).

 

 

True, some clarification on the difference between "deals damage in combat", "combat damage" and "is damaged during combat" is sorely needed.

 

 

Sadistic Mutation clearly says on the card damage in combat.

 

And maybe there isn't a difference between deals damage in combat, combat damage and damaged during combat. Call me crazy but those all mean the same thing and I am pretty sure in any defintion of the English language it would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Toqtamish said:

And maybe there isn't a difference between deals damage in combat, combat damage and damaged during combat. Call me crazy but those all mean the same thing and I am pretty sure in any defintion of the English language it would.

Well, Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") has already been ruled to work whenever you deal damage during combat (the 5 steps of the Battlefield Phase). Hence the Pestilence + Shrine combo works during any of those 5 steps. Combat damage is dealt by Units in combat, either as attacker or defender. Which leaves "in combat" in the middle for now, though it seems to go with combat damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the FAQ is released, I hope, for the sake of clarity, that all those terms (damage in combat, combat damage and damaged during combat) mean "damage inflicted by attacking or defending units during the 5th battle step. Damage inflicted during the action window of this step doesn't count as this kind of damage"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 No. Not unless Nate has decided to take it in a different direction. We already have multiple statements from him that damage during combat is during the five steps and is not the same as combat damage. I highly suspect he will errata Shrine to Nurgle before he changes the rule.

We know what combat damage is as well both by the rulebook and further clarification from Nate. The only thing we don't know is damage in combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comparing Arrer Boyz to Nurgle Sorcerer, this combo being legal wouldn't be too shocking. Nurgle Sorcerer is pay 3 resources to do 1 damage to any unit (2 if the target is corrupted). With Toughness, Arrer Boyz is pay 2 resources and deal 1 damage to any unit in any Battlefield. So it costs 2 resources instead of 3 but you are restricted to targetting unis in the Battlefield and of course you have to set the combo up first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe not directly, but it did clarify on what  Non Combat Damage is: "Non Combat Damage is the term for all damage generated besides combat damage." (FAQ p.7). Arrer Boys ability can be triggered in any action window as long as they are in the Battlefield right? So I'd assume that the damage they receive, based on the definition of Non Combat Damage, is "applied as soon as it is assigned", thereby by-passing Toughness.

What do you guys think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mathulus said:

"applied as soon as it is assigned"

How does that bypass toughness? It will still be applied and thus toughness will trigger.



Non Combat Damage is always applied as soon as it is assigned before any other actions can be taken.
When does toughness trigger ? I don't think the rulebook is clear enough.
According to the rulebook, page 17, during the apply damage phase "effects like Toughness kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target".
If toughness triggers before damage is applied (between the assign/apply damage phase) then toughness does not affect non combat damage.  

If this is the case, the combo no longer works.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gerson said:

When does toughness trigger ? I don't think the rulebook is clear enough.
According to the rulebook, page 17, during the apply damage phase "effects like Toughness kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target".
If toughness triggers before damage is applied (between the assign/apply damage phase) then toughness does not affect non combat damage.  

emphasis added

How is that unclear preocupado.gif ? Page 13 talks about how Toughness kicks in during the Apply Damage step.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dam said:

 

Gerson said:

When does toughness trigger ? I don't think the rulebook is clear enough.
According to the rulebook, page 17, during the apply damage phase "effects like Toughness kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target".
If toughness triggers before damage is applied (between the assign/apply damage phase) then toughness does not affect non combat damage.  

 

emphasis added

How is that unclear preocupado.gif ? Page 13 talks about how Toughness kicks in during the Apply Damage step.

 

 

Actually, what was unclear was my postsad.gif

When I read that non combat damage "is always applied as soon as it is assigned, before any other actions can be taken", it seemed to me that nothing could prevent the damage to be applied. Even Toughness. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gerson said:

 

Dam said:

 

Gerson said:

When does toughness trigger ? I don't think the rulebook is clear enough.
According to the rulebook, page 17, during the apply damage phase "effects like Toughness kick in and cancel damage before it reaches the target".
If toughness triggers before damage is applied (between the assign/apply damage phase) then toughness does not affect non combat damage.  

 

emphasis added

How is that unclear preocupado.gif ? Page 13 talks about how Toughness kicks in during the Apply Damage step.

 

 

Actually, what was unclear was my postsad.gif

When I read that non combat damage "is always applied as soon as it is assigned, before any other actions can be taken", it seemed to me that nothing could prevent the damage to be applied. Even Toughness. 

 

 

 

its refereing "turn player priority" and the like. its trying to say that when you assign the damage it is also applied. Normally you have a "action" window that you can take. But thats Actions that YOU the player takes. in which case if a forced. ability is being forced then you arnt taking the action. You only take actions by choice. so a "you may" ability would be skipped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...