A little bit of Conflict for hurting people with the Force?

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

53 minutes ago, Kael said:

For someone who stated he didn't like "fanciful interpations" of his own post you seem pretty comfortable doing the same to others. 

Though I suppose accusing everyone of insulting someone else is a good way to avoid addressing the holes in the arguments you make. 

That right here is you deflecting.

 

 

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

That right here is you deflecting.

 

 

 

[Deimos119 28]

On Wed Feb 15 2017 at 2:57 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Using the Bind power with its Movement and Master upgrades, as well as Strain upgrade could easily put the guards out of the fight without actually injuring them, and no need for using DSPs either so no Conflict there. 

So show me where it says Bind can be used to throw people into objects.  "Control Upgrade: Spend()to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user. The user may not activate this multiple times. "

Nowhere does it say into an object. Moving or slamming people into things is part of the hurl upgrade for the Move power.

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

54 minutes ago, Deimos119 said:

So show me where it says Bind can be used to throw people into objects.  "Control Upgrade: Spend()to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user. The user may not activate this multiple times. "

Nowhere does it say into an object. Moving or slamming people into things is part of the hurl upgrade for the Move power.

Just spend advantages on your roll and bam, slammed into the wall and disorientated or disarmed or knockdown or everything together if you roll just enough advantages. 

[Deimos119 28]

32 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Just spend advantages on your roll and bam, slammed into the wall and disorientated or disarmed or knockdown or everything together if you roll just enough advantages. 

Disoriented is already a seprate upgrade to Bind. Plus you only roll force dice unless the GM makes it a resisted check. Even than your trying to emulate other powers abilities. Move can already disarm, knockdown may be possible though. 

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Just spend advantages on your roll and bam, slammed into the wall and disorientated or disarmed or knockdown or everything together if you roll just enough advantages. 

 

Yeah but slamming people into objects is the province of Move. The devs have already said that Force Slam, which would be what Yoda did, is considered Move and not Bind. Bind doesn't really replicate what we see in that scene. Saying that Bind is what was used is really a stretch. 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

2 hours ago, Deimos119 said:

So show me where it says Bind can be used to throw people into objects.  "Control Upgrade: Spend()to immediately move the target one range band toward or away from the user. The user may not activate this multiple times. "

Nowhere does it say into an object. Moving or slamming people into things is part of the hurl upgrade for the Move power.

 

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Just spend advantages on your roll and bam, slammed into the wall and disorientated or disarmed or knockdown or everything together if you roll just enough advantages. 

 

44 minutes ago, Deimos119 said:

Disoriented is already a seprate upgrade to Bind. Plus you only roll force dice unless the GM makes it a resisted check. Even than your trying to emulate other powers abilities. Move can already disarm, knockdown may be possible though. 

 

40 minutes ago, Kael said:

Yeah but slamming people into objects is the province of Move. The devs have already said that Force Slam, which would be what Yoda did, is considered Move and not Bind. Bind doesn't really replicate what we see in that scene. Saying that Bind is what was used is really a stretch. 

Bind can be used to push people away one range band. IF there is something in the way (like a wall), they can and probably will hit it, but won't take any wound damage (as per Sam Stewart). But, through using the Strain upgrade and/or the Mastery upgrade, you can cause strain and/or stagger the target. If you use Hurl, all you do is cause wound damage. 

[Deimos119 28]

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

Bind can be used to push people away one range band. IF there is something in the way (like a wall), they can and probably will hit it, but won't take any wound damage (as per Sam Stewart). But, through using the Strain upgrade and/or the Mastery upgrade, you can cause strain and/or stagger the target. If you use Hurl, all you do is cause wound damage. 

So if it regards conflict or morality it's strickly RAW, but when it comes to using a force effect that isn't RAW it's open to interpretation?

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

 

Bind can be used to push people away one range band. IF there is something in the way (like a wall), they can and probably will hit it, but won't take any wound damage (as per Sam Stewart). But, through using the Strain upgrade and/or the Mastery upgrade, you can cause strain and/or stagger the target. If you use Hurl, all you do is cause wound damage. 

 

 

The problem is that they don't move a range band. Yoda and the guards start in the same range band. To claim that you are using Bind you have to move them an actual range band. If you are moving them within the same range band as you you're using Move.  The action starts in short range band and ends in short range band. 

 

I'm sorry but it simply does not work the way you are describing it. 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

3 minutes ago, Kael said:

 

The problem is that they don't move a range band. Yoda and the guards start in the same range band. To claim that you are using Bind you have to move them an actual range band. If you are moving them within the same range band as you you're using Move.  The action starts in short range band and ends in short range band. 

 

I'm sorry but it simply does not work the way you are describing it. 

Actually, technically, they do. They move from Engaged to Short. And, this was a specific question asked to Sam Stewart regarding whether or not Bind's movement upgrade could cause damage if such movement ended up causing someone to hit something while being pushed back. The difference between using Bind's movment upgrade and Move's Hurl upgrade, is that with Hurl, you are specifically using something or someone as a projectile targeting a third individual (or object) with the express intent of damaging that target aimed at. With Bind, you are pushing someone back a certain distance, which may result in a non-damaging collision if something happens to be in the way.  You're not actually targeting that other object, and you're not causing any wound damage, because, you are correct, Bind's movement upgrade is not designed to hurl people directly into objects like a projectile. However, that does not mean that they can't still end up inadvertently hitting something in their way as they are pushed back.  The only thing that may happen, is that they're immobilized until the end of their next turn, and (if the Mastery upgrade is used), they may be staggered for the same amount of time. That is it. The problem with having Yoda using Move's Hulr upgrade is that, Royal Guards, as Nemesis NPCs, are essentially the same as PCs i regards to wound thresholds, and Strain thresholds, and such. It would take a lot more than simply the ten wounds from their silhouette  hitting the wall (minus their soak value) to incapacitate them, whereas using Bind's Movement upgrade, combined with its Mastery upgrade, definitely puts them out for at least a full round. And even after they recover, they'd be unlikely to want to engage Yoda again. And it also avoids the whole "attack" thing, as it simply means Yoda is getting them out of the way to deal with the real threat. 

[GroggyGolem 2,848]

4 minutes ago, Deimos119 said:

So if it regards conflict or morality it's strickly RAW, but when it comes to using a force effect that isn't RAW it's open to interpretation?

As has been stated by myself more than once now, Tramp Graphics changes what he says on multiple occasions, picking and choosing when he upholds strictly RAW and when it's okay to include commentary & further explanations from the Developers, whatever is convenient to attempt to prove his arguments.

Regarding this, I've pointed it out & though he responds to every other comment that argues a different viewpoint than his, he is ignoring the ones where I have shown he is blatantly holding two different opinions only when it's convenient and applies to his viewpoint.

As it's all coming from the same source & none of it is any more true than the other, either all of the Developer commentary is worth considering or none of it is and we should all stick strictly with RAW. Picking and choosing which statements are more true or more worthy of recognition from the Developers weakens one's argument.

This topic has gone on far into derailment and I have no desire to perpetuate that, I feel similarly for the one Tramp started about the Move power. I'm gonna slide on out of both conversations as they aren't productive and are going in circles.

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

They move from Engaged to Short

No, they do not. 

You're not helping the case against you about not understanding the rules of this game.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

3 minutes ago, Kael said:

No, they do not. 

You're not helping the case against you about not understanding the rules of this game.

Sure they are. To quote page 215:

Quote

Engaged 

To reflect two or more targets who are grappling or otherwise engaged in hand-to-hand combat, there is a special range status called engaged. Two characters engaged with each other are in very close proximity. A Warrior needs to be engaged with a target to hit him  with a lightsaber. When two or more characters are engaged with each other, it is called an engagement. 

<snip>

Consider engaged as a subcategory of Short range. Obviously someone might be slightly farther away if they're short range instead of engaged with someone else. However, the distance is relatively minor. Thus spending a maneuver to move to engage someone or something is as much a matter of moving into combat cautiously enough to avoid receiving a blow unnecessarily as it is moving a physical distance. 

Short Range

Short range indicates up to several meters between targets...

The Guards moved to engage Yoda, putting them i n Engaged range. Yoda pushed them back away from him out to short range (into a wall). 

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

The Guards moved to engage Yoda, putting them i n Engaged range. Yoda pushed them back away from him out to short range (into a wall). 

I am further convinced you do not understand the rules of this game.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

And that is your prerogative. 

[Benjan Meruna 797]

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And that is your prerogative. 

Here's the gif again:

 

They don't change range bands from him. He walks into Engaged Range, they turn around and ready their weapons, not attacking but on guard.  Then he attacks them, and they fall down in place, again without changing range bands.  He could still hit them with his Lightsaber without having to spend a Maneuver to get into range, easily.  Kael is right, you are not.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

They actually fall down further away from him than where they were standing.

 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

6 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Here's the gif again:

 

They don't change range bands from him. He walks into Engaged Range, they turn around and ready their weapons, not attacking but on guard.  Then he attacks them, and they fall down in place, again without changing range bands.  He could still hit them with his Lightsaber without having to spend a Maneuver to get into range, easily.  Kael is right, you are not.

Not really, especially given his size and that of his lightsaber. He would have to move at least a few feet either way and could only strike one or the other, not both. So, I would definitely say they are now both in short range from him. And they certainly didn't hit the wall hard enough to inflict any real damage to them either. 

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

They actually fall down further away from him than where they were standing.

 

Yep. 

[StarkJunior 1,240]

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And they certainly didn't hit the wall hard enough to inflict any real damage to them either. 

Yet, they remain knocked out for the entirety of the fight between Yoda and Sidious.

Okay.

[Kael 1,865]

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Not really, especially given his size and that of his lightsaber. He would have to move at least a few feet either way and could only strike one or the other, not both. So, I would definitely say they are now both in short range from him. And they certainly didn't hit the wall hard enough to inflict any real damage to them either. 

 

It must be convenient to be able to stretch the rules to mean whatever you want them to support whatever asinine argument you want to make. 

[Benjan Meruna 797]

4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

They actually fall down further away from him than where they were standing.

 

The one on the left's feet end up actually closer to Yoda after falling down.  The one on the right rocks his feet up in the air and we don't see where they land, but it's within a foot or two of where he was standing.  If I were a player and you were my GM and you told me it would take a maneuver to engage the prone NPC with that as your example, I'd laugh in your face with the rest of the table.

 

Edit:  At this point, Stan, I'm starting to wonder if you've played the game at all.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Deimos119 28]

3 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

 

Edit:  At this point, Stan, I'm starting to wonder if you've played the game at all.

At this point I wonder if Stan and Tramp are the same person on two different accounts.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yet, they remain knocked out for the entirety of the fight between Yoda and Sidious.

Okay.

Are you sure? We really don't see them much once the battle between Yoda and the Emperor really get going. And, as I said, with a Wound threshold of 16 and a Soak of 5, the Move hurl upgrade doesn't do nearly enough damage to incapacitate a Nemesis level NPC, which is what Royal Guards are, according to F&D page 407. Therfore, Yoda could not have knocked them unconciuos just from pushing them into the wall if he was using Hurl. The only way he could put them out of the fight using a "Force Push", even for a short time, would be to use Bind to push them away and simultaneously immobilize and stagger them. 

[StarkJunior 1,240]

It's Yoda. YODA.

He's probably got so much experience that it's insane, and it's even more likely he's a Nemesis NPC like Vader who doesn't even have the same rules as player characters.