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A little bit of Conflict for hurting people with the Force?

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Please show us where it is stated somewhere the Consular in FFG is based specifically on Yoda, and that's the only thing he can be in FFG's system. Give us some proof of your absolute statements.

No one here is saying he can't be a Consular - we are simply saying he can't only be a Consular.

Edited by StarkJunior

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8 minutes ago, ghatt said:

Oh, goodness...

Legit or not, that makes no difference. It simply establishes that the Jedi, Windu in particular, had no problem rationalizing assassination, a term they used while deliberating about it in the novel. They came to the conclusion that the ends justified the means. They were willing to get into bed with a known Sith assassin to do so. The Jedi don't always have the moral high ground in every argument.

Read the book. It's a good read. Not the most satisfying ending, and certainly plenty of uncomfortable moments but it's very relevant to this conversation.

 

And none of that changes what happens in the movie.

 

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Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda has always been established as a Consular. And, based upon his general attitudes and functions within the Order, as well as his temperment and preferences, he is most certainly a Consular even in FFG terms.  Now, as for FFG and the various Jedi paths. It should b noted that originally, there were really only three Jedi paths recognized: Jedi  Consulars, Jedi Guardians, and Jedi Sentinels. FFG seems to have split each of them in two: Consulars were split into Consular and Mystic, Guardian into Guardian and Warrior, and Sentinel into Sentinel and Seeker. This seems to have been done to give F&D six career paths, just as EotE and AoR have. 

No offense Tramp, but you're way too rigid with this system. Your willingness to thouroughly read the rule book is commendable, but it's rather impossible to know with an absolute certainty what career Yoda started off in, in regards to the FFG system. He's 900 years old. If I was that old I probably would've switched 'career' paths many many times. Ultimately, it hardly matters what career best fits Yoda, because with the amount of XP he has you could build him out of just about any of them. He's as close to a maxed out character as one can find in Star Wars. 

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10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

...

 

No in is disputing that Yoda would make a good Consular.  The point is that there is more than one approach to building Yoda.  Consular might even be the best fit (*might*).  Even then, there's more than one way to do it justice in this system.  The Mystic is also a new option in gaming terms so wikipedia entries talking about other gaming systems isn't necessarily all that relevant.

Why is it so hard for you to say "Hey, I think Consular is the best fit.  But people could build a decent Yoda in lots of ways."?  Are you really trying to argue that someone couldn't build Yoda starting out as a Mystic or Seeker or Guardian and then spend 2000 XP and not come up with a very representative and iconic Yoda character?

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12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda has always been established as a Consular. And, based upon his general attitudes and functions within the Order, as well as his temperment and preferences, he is most certainly a Consular even in FFG terms.  Now, as for FFG and the various Jedi paths. It should b noted that originally, there were really only three Jedi paths recognized: Jedi  Consulars, Jedi Guardians, and Jedi Sentinels. FFG seems to have split each of them in two: Consulars were split into Consular and Mystic, Guardian into Guardian and Warrior, and Sentinel into Sentinel and Seeker. This seems to have been done to give F&D six career paths, just as EotE and AoR have. 

1. Yoda was not always a Consular. There were no such thing as Jedi Consulars in the 1980's.

2. Sentinels didn't exist til KotOR (IIRC). The OCR d20 rules had Guardian and Consular as classes. 

3. Originally, there was actually just one path, "Jedi."

4. FaD Careers aren't Jedi careers, and don't pretend to be. They are supposed to be able to represent all stripes of non-Jedi Force users, because they are set in, and built specifically for, an era where the Jedi are all but extinct.

Edited by awayputurwpn

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Just now, ghatt said:

No offense Tramp, but you're way too rigid with this system. Your willingness to thouroughly read the rule book is commendable, but it's rather impossible to know with an absolute certainty what career Yoda started off in, in regards to the FFG system. He's 900 years old. If I was that old I probably would've switched 'career' paths many many times. Ultimately, it hardly matters what career best fits Yoda, because with the amount of XP he has you could build him out of just about any of them. He's as close to a maxed out character as one can find in Star Wars. 

The problem there is, with this game system, you can't switch Careers, only Specializations. If you could, then that would be no problem. But the rules don't allow you to switch Careers. Therefore, whatever Career you start in you're stuck with. And Yoda has always been established as a Consular since that term was first introduced way back with the D20 OCRB. And, Yoda is still established as a Consular

 

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

1. Yoda was not always a Consular. There were no such thing as Jedi Consulars in the 1980's.

2. Sentinels didn't exist til KotOR. The OCR d20 rules had Guardian and Consular as classes.

3. Originally, there was actually just one path, "Jedi."

4. FaD Careers aren't Jedi careers, and don't pretend to be. They are supposed to be able to represent all stripes of non-Jedi Force users, because they are set in, and built specifically for, an era where the Jedi are all but extinct.

1. As I stated above, since the term was introduced, Yoda has always been classified as a Consular, and is still classified as such in just about every source I know of. 

2. No argument there. However, Jedi Shadows (a subcategory of the Sentinels) and Jedi Watchmen both date back to the D6 Tales of the Jedi Companion.

3. Again, no argument there. However, even before the three main disciplines were established (first in games, then in the comics), Jedi did take on various specialized functions. 

4.The F&D careers are directly descended from (and can most certainly function as) Jedi career paths. Each of the F&D career books published bears this out. 

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7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The problem there is, with this game system, you can't switch Careers, only Specializations. If you could, then that would be no problem. But the rules don't allow you to switch Careers. Therefore, whatever Career you start in you're stuck with. And Yoda has always been established as a Consular since that term was first introduced way back with the D20 OCRB. And, Yoda is still established as a Consular

 

1. As I stated above, since the term was introduced, Yoda has always been classified as a Consular, and is still classified as such in just about every source I know of. 

2. No argument there. However, Jedi Shadows (a subcategory of the Sentinels) and Jedi Watchmen both date back to the D6 Tales of the Jedi Companion.

3. Again, no argument there. However, even before the three main disciplines were established (first in games, then in the comics), Jedi did take on various specialized functions. 

4.The F&D careers are directly descended from (and can most certainly function as) Jedi career paths. Each of the F&D career books published bears this out. 

With the amount of XP Yoda has careers only matter as far as signature abilities are concerned. He's got whichever spec he needs. It doesn't matter.

And, as far as signature abilities are concerned, a case could be made that he employs Fated Duel on multiple occasions. A case could also be made that the circumstances of those duels didn't warrant the need for Fated Duel as well.

Edited by ghatt

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Destiny and Sacrifice happen before the revenge of the sith. 

Warrior seems to be Mauls Spec. Mystic looks in many ways like something of Sith origin. Makishi fits well into that as the jedi adopted the form and lastly is the seeker really something from the jedi or something darker? Animal control was a darkside thing ... now Windu adopted aswell a darkside form for the jedi. 

 

So is there really a split  or do we get a lot of Sith traditions aswell? 

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Just now, ghatt said:

With the amount of XP Yoda has, careers only matter as far as signature abilities are concerned. He's got whichever spec he needs. It doesn't matter.

And honestly, when 900 years old YOU reach, more than one Signature Ability, YOU can have! eheeheeheehhee

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda has always been established as a Consular. And, based upon his general attitudes and functions within the Order, as well as his temperment and preferences, he is most certainly a Consular even in FFG terms.  Now, as for FFG and the various Jedi paths. It should b noted that originally, there were really only three Jedi paths recognized: Jedi  Consulars, Jedi Guardians, and Jedi Sentinels. FFG seems to have split each of them in two: Consulars were split into Consular and Mystic, Guardian into Guardian and Warrior, and Sentinel into Sentinel and Seeker. This seems to have been done to give F&D six career paths, just as EotE and AoR have. 

Yoda wasn't established as a "consular" in Saga Edition Star Wars.  In fact of his 11 Talents only one was from the Consular Talent Tree (so technically he's 1/11th Consular).

I think you are correct that FFG's system to some degree is organized by Careers being very meaningful - they release splat books with that assumption - but they aren't intended to be restrictive.  The fluff in each Career section outlines some general attitudes those in the Career are likely to have but even that is more of a spark to players creating characters.  The Specialization splat books often dive into the many different ways of conceiving of a character from that Career.

And a reasonable player can look at the fluff from Guardian and Mystic and decide that would make a great beginning of Yoda because it depends on which aspect of Yoda you want to focus on first.

Also, depending on how you look at it and the way you want to build a character their Career choice might be a jumping off point to later go into something you want the character to really focus on.

Yoda is 900 years old and a very high XP character and he ended up in a condition where Consular (or Mystic etc) describes him well.  But who's to stay he didn't START out as a Seeker Hermit or a Warrior Shi-cho Knight or a Guardian Peacekeeper.

And if you ignore Career's for a moment and just look at Specializations then Sage, Seer, Ataru Striker, and Teacher all have a claim on being an important part of Yoda (you could also throw Hermit or Advisor in to the mix).  You're really going to tell people that picking Seer as Yoda's first specialization is "wrong"?

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4 minutes ago, ghatt said:

With the amount of XP Yoda has careers only matter as far as signature abilities are concerned. He's got whichever spec he needs. It doesn't matter.

The core books talk about a career being a fundamental expression of how a character approaches their problems. They're more than just receptacles for skills and specialties.

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Just now, Stan Fresh said:

 

Not by Windu,  no.

 

He...tried to kill a widely-known political leader, for political and religious reasons (protect the Republic + Destroy the Sith), who was (possibly pretending to be) helpless and actively begging for mercy.

Do I need to repaste the definition of "assassination" for you again?

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Just now, Stan Fresh said:

The core books talk about a career being a fundamental expression of how a character approaches their problems. They're more than just receptacles for skills and specialties.

The Core Book also assumes a game played within the confines of the Galactic Civil War, aka ~5 years.  Yoda's experience and first career began almost 900 years ago.  Are you seriously suggesting that he never changed, his character never shifted or developed in any way over 900 years?!

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1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

Execution, assassination, it's all good in the space 'hood.

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children."

Oops... wrong Samuel Jackson movie, lol.

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7 minutes ago, ghatt said:

With the amount of XP Yoda has careers only matter as far as signature abilities are concerned. He's got whichever spec he needs. It doesn't matter.

And, as far as signature abilities are concerned, a case could be made that he employs Fated Duel on multiple occasions. A case could also be made that the circumstances of those duels didn't warrant the need for Fated Duel as well.

 

4 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Yoda wasn't established as a "consular" in Saga Edition Star Wars.  In fact of his 11 Talents only one was from the Consular Talent Tree (so technically he's 1/11th Consular).

I think you are correct that FFG's system to some degree is organized by Careers being very meaningful - they release splat books with that assumption - but they aren't intended to be restrictive.  The fluff in each Career section outlines some general attitudes those in the Career are likely to have but even that is more of a spark to players creating characters.  The Specialization splat books often dive into the many different ways of conceiving of a character from that Career.

And a reasonable player can look at the fluff from Guardian and Mystic and decide that would make a great beginning of Yoda because it depends on which aspect of Yoda you want to focus on first.

Also, depending on how you look at it and the way you want to build a character their Career choice might be a jumping off point to later go into something you want the character to really focus on.

Yoda is 900 years old and a very high XP character and he ended up in a condition where Consular (or Mystic etc) describes him well.  But who's to stay he didn't START out as a Seeker Hermit or a Warrior Shi-cho Knight or a Guardian Peacekeeper.

And if you ignore Career's for a moment and just look at Specializations then Sage, Seer, Ataru Striker, and Teacher all have a claim on being an important part of Yoda (you could also throw Hermit or Advisor in to the mix).  You're really going to tell people that picking Seer as Yoda's first specialization is "wrong"?

 

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

The core books talk about a career being a fundamental expression of how a character approaches their problems. They're more than just receptacles for skills and specialties.

 

Just now, ghatt said:

The book also doesn't have any rules concerning 900 year old characters.

No, it doesn't, but it is a restriction on any and all Player Characters, leaving Specializations as the key diversifying factor. And, based upon his core personality and focus, as well as already established precedence, Yoda is most assuredly a Consular. And I am sure that when the developers played their "Jedi Council" campaign, some time back, where each of them played one of the Jedi Council, Yoda would have certainly had the Consular career. 

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16 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

1. Yoda was not always a Consular. There were no such thing as Jedi Consulars in the 1980's.

2. Sentinels didn't exist til KotOR (IIRC). The OCR d20 rules had Guardian and Consular as classes. 

3. Originally, there was actually just one path, "Jedi."

4. FaD Careers aren't Jedi careers, and don't pretend to be. They are supposed to be able to represent all stripes of non-Jedi Force users, because they are set in, and built specifically for, an era where the Jedi are all but extinct.

I mostly agree but with your 4th point...come on man!

I remember before the F&D beta came out there was a long history of speculation about what F&D would bring as far as Jedi.  My memory of it was that most thought that either there would be a Jedi Career or maybe a specialization each for something like Consular, Guardian, Sentinel.  I don't think anyone (or at least very few) imagined there'd be full "Jedi" Careers like Consular, Guardian, Sentinel much less a Specializatin for each major Lightsaber form.  It really screams Jedi.

I do agree that each Career supports a number of non-Jedi options (some Specializations explicitly so) but I think they were generally designed to make Jedi characters.  And I think the Careers give a big nod to this.  Yes, fluff wise they fit into an era where the Jedi are all but extinct but the fluff goes out of it's way to say that a certain Career and/or Specialization is "descended" from a Jedi way of doing/seeing things.  So, yes, the fluff says Consular is not really the Jedi Consular of yore (because there are essentially none at that point in the timeline) but it's called out in several Careers/Specs that you're following in the Jedi footsteps. I think there's a big wink wink there.

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Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

 

No, it doesn't, but it is a restriction on any and all Player Characters, leaving Specializations as the key diversifying factor. And, based upon his core personality and focus, as well as already established precedence, Yoda is most assuredly a Consular. And I am sure that when the developers played their "Jedi Council" campaign, some time back, where each of them played one of the Jedi Council, Yoda would have certainly had the Consular career. 

He may well have been. You could, however, get the same end result from starting with any of the FaD careers.

End where you start, you do not.

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12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

 

 

No, it doesn't, but it is a restriction on any and all Player Characters, leaving Specializations as the key diversifying factor. And, based upon his core personality and focus, as well as already established precedence, Yoda is most assuredly a Consular. And I am sure that when the developers played their "Jedi Council" campaign, some time back, where each of them played one of the Jedi Council, Yoda would have certainly had the Consular career. 

KR Kappel could have chosen Consular as Yoda's Career.  But I wasn't in any of the games he's run so I don't know.  But he could have used it using any Career - especially since he didn't have any Consular Signature Abilities there would essentially be zero impact of picking Consular over any other career with such a high level XP character.

And you didn't really address any of my arguments.  You keep repeating yourself but you're not really engaging.

Core personality is not determined by Career.  Your Morality has more to do with that than Career but mostly core personality is whatever you want it to be.  Picking a career doesn't lock you into a character's personality or focus.  It offers you beginning options and a Signature Ability.

And you keep saying the Consular is Yoda's obvious focus.  Yes - you can build a fine Yoda using Consular.  It might even be the best overall fit.  But you could also go with Mystic.  Or Seeker if you wanted a Yoda that started out with Ataru ability and you like the Seeker Signature Ability good at doing devastating lightsaber attacks.

Really, are you going to tell people who are building Yoda from scratch they are "wrong" to first pick Mystic Seer?  Someone really can't make Yoda this way?  2000XP later this character won't be the iconic Yoda?

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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2 minutes ago, ghatt said:

He may well have been. You could, however, get the same end result from starting with any of the FaD careers.

End where you start, you do not.

Not really. Pretty much ever specialization Yoda would have, barring his Lightsaber style specialization, which is definitely Ateru Striker, they almost all fit under the Consular Career specializations: Sage, Ascetic, Teacher, etc. In fact, I'd be willing to say he probably has pretty much all of the Consular Specs, and probably maxed them all out to boot. Might he have a couple of Mystic or other Seeker specs as well? Sure. Hermit would be a good one. But not Guardian Specs, nor Warrior, and probably not Sentinel either. There is nothing in his personality, nor how he deals with things (inside or outside of combat) which suggests any of the specializations from those careers. 

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