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A little bit of Conflict for hurting people with the Force?

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4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

 

It's hilarious watching you all twist yourself into knots trying to disagree with everything Tramp says.

 

 

What's even more hilarious is the way you never actually contribute to the conversations you partake in. 

 

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

Because he's not the one coming up with increasingly bizarre interpretations of the movies to support reflexively contrarian claims.

Yeah, he is. The saddest thing is that he does it all the time in almost every thread. 

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Because he's not the one coming up with increasingly bizarre interpretations of the movies to support reflexively contrarian claims.

So you're saying that Tramp is not disagreeing with anyone, and everyone besides Tramp is being reflexively contrary?

I would love to talk more about this, but I want to be sure I understand your position.

Unless of course people are interested in getting back to the OT! I'm always game.

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4 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

So you're saying that Tramp is not disagreeing with anyone, and everyone besides Tramp is being reflexively contrary?

I'm saying that several posters here have let their frustration steer them into absurd positions.

 

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6 hours ago, Kael said:

What's even more hilarious is the way you never actually contribute to the conversations you partake in. 

Hey, a blatantly untrue statement made in an attempt not to acknowledge your own behavior. I've only been here a short time, but that seems to be your thing.

 

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16 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Characterizing Windu's group as assassins.

Windu tried to murder a high ranking official without a trial.  That's...pretty much the definition of assassination:

as·sas·sin
əˈsasn/
noun
 
  1. a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.
    synonyms: murderer, killer, gunman; More

 

Note that this doesn't make them evil, there were plenty of assassination attempts against Hitler, after all.  But it doesn't change the definition of the word.

 

16 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Saying Yoda initiated that conflict.

Yoda walked into the Chancellor's office and (Force) body checked two guys against a wall.  "But Palpatine attacked the Jedi!"  After the Jedi attacked him.  At the point that Windu and the rest went to arrest Palpatine...they literally had no legal evidence to prove wrongdoing, other than he professed to be of a certain religion which isn't even banned by the Republic!  The Jedi initiated the physical conflict between themselves and Palpatine, and Yoda initiated that particular battle.  That's not even a "position," it's literally just what happened in the films.

As a side note, obviously the viewer and the Jedi know the Sith are up to no good...but that rush to action over careful and deliberated thought (which is what Yoda preached in the OT) is what doomed the Jedi.  Palpatine set a legal trap for the Jedi that they blundered into full force.  Morally, the Jedi had an imperative to pursue Palpatine in accordance with Republic law.  Would that have served them better?  Probably not, given Palpatine would have likely planned for it.  It's hard to imagine things going much worse, though.

16 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That Yoda is primarily a stabby warrior, not a mentor/sage.

You can be both a mentor and a stabby warrior, you know.   I think Yoda can be seen in a variety of categories since the films cover a fairly long (and rather turbulent) time period in Yoda's life.  However, you can't deny that whenever Yoda gets into a fight, he doesn't rely on the Force as his primary ability.  He lights his lightsaber and goes to town, rather aggressively at that.  We only see him ditch the lightsaber after the events of Revenge of the Sith, and that may well mark his full transition to Consular.  It's difficult to tell, however, because Yoda is never forced to fight in the OT and thus we don't know what his methods would have been.  And I think we're better off not knowing, because fighting was something Prequel Yoda did and excelled at.  OT Yoda was a font of wisdom.

 

So, yeah.  The only absurd position here is yours: that people's opinions or what literally happened in the films can be "wrong."

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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23 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

case in point

 

Nice argument, really contributes to the thread.

At this point, I'm just reporting you for trolling.  I recommend every else do the same, because this kind of antagonism adds nothing to the discussion off-topic or not.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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3 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

You keep going on about how you've only been here a short time, but I've been here less time and I can tell that Tramp is pathologically incapable of admitting error and that you're a troll.

1) And that's why it's a mistake to get frustrated by him and let yourself be pushed into bizarre positions.

2) I see how unhealthy the situation in this forum is and comment on it. If that makes some people uncomfortable, it's worth considering why.

 

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56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Characterizing Windu's group as assassins. 

I don't remember this...? It's been stated a couple times that Yoda went there to kill Sidious, which would make him an assassin, but Windu went there to arrest the dude. He was definitely willing to kill him, and eventually almost did so.

Who said Windu's group went there as assassins?

56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Saying Yoda initiated that conflict. 

 

He absolutely did. In cinematic terms and in pretend-game-terms. Whether it was Fated Duel, a Force power used to get rid of the Royal guards, or whatnot, Yoda came there with the express intent to end the guy's life. At the point where Sidious tried to escape, Yoda cut off his escape with his lightsaber drawn. Yoda was the initiator.

 

56 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That Yoda is primarily a stabby warrior, not a mentor/sage. For example.

 

What was the context of this one? I have proposed that Yoda could be started as as a PC with the Guardian career, which is not the same thing as a "stabby warrior." 

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5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

What was the context of this one? I have proposed that Yoda could be started as as a PC with the Guardian career, which is not the same thing as a "stabby warrior." 

This is a good point; I think I let myself get sucked into that false definition of "Guardian = 'stabby warrior'", which isn't true in the least.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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17 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Tramp, the point is that Yoda tends to use his lightsaber against enemies.  He never uses the Force directly against Dooku, he uses his lightsaber against the Clone troopers (both initially on Kashyyyk and later at the Jedi Temple), he uses it against Sidious...it's harder to name times he didn't use his lightsaber when it came to a fight.

That's just it, Yoda doesn't default to the Lightsaber for facing enemies any more than any other Jedi does. And yes, he does use the Force first before the lightsabers come out when he faces Dooku. He uses it defensively. It is only when Dooku draws his own lightsaber that Yoda draws his. 

17 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Actually, afaik not all jedi were generals, there were not enough clone armies for that nor did all jedi agree with the cause of action.

And you will notice as well that he was send there for a diplomatic mission, same has we have seen obi-wan many times. He is afterall the commander of the whole jedi army, not just one army like the other jedi. The council leads the jedi in this war and he leads the council, we seen him as well in clone wars many, many times ordering obi-wan or skywalker to hotspots to intervene military or act as diplomats for the republic. 

Furthermore, guardians are not soldiers. You seem to have mixed something up here, they are protectors, peacekeepers, but they ain't soldiers. They fight when they must, they seek other solutions if they can. That is nothing specific to the consular, it is a core value to the lightside. 

Exactly, Yoda went to Toydaria because of his diplomatic ability, not his combat ability. Yes, he was forced into combat, but that was not his purpose there, and even then he used that combat to further his diplomatic duties. And, yes, Guardians are peacekeepers and protectors; they are the more martial discipline of the Jedi. But all Jedi are trained in combat. Does that make all Jedi Guardians? No. Yoda, while certainly skilled with a lightsaber, is not a combatant first and foremost (whether as a peacekeeper or soldier). He is a scholar and diplomat first and foremost. That is what makes him a Consular. 

17 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

In general, the Guardians tend to default to their lightsabers when it comes time to fight.  Consulars tend to use the Force a bit more in their fighting techniques.  Moreover, Guardians are generally more aggressive with their lightsaber fighting, seeking not just to Reflect but to actively cut someone down.  Consulars will generally Reflect, then use Move to push someone down.

Consulars tend to focus more on understanding the Force and seeking knowledge and wisdom more than they are combat oriented in any form. Yoda falls into this category. He is a sage, a seeker and purveyor of wisdom, more inclined to meditation than combat. 

3 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Windu tried to murder a high ranking official without a trial.  That's...pretty much the definition of assassination:

as·sas·sin
əˈsasn/
noun
 
  1. a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.
    synonyms: murderer, killer, gunman; More

 

Note that this doesn't make them evil, there were plenty of assassination attempts against Hitler, after all.  But it doesn't change the definition of the word.

 

Yoda walked into the Chancellor's office and (Force) body checked two guys against a wall.  "But Palpatine attacked the Jedi!"  After the Jedi attacked him.  At the point that Windu and the rest went to arrest Palpatine...they literally had no legal evidence to prove wrongdoing, other than he professed to be of a certain religion which isn't even banned by the Republic!  The Jedi initiated the physical conflict between themselves and Palpatine, and Yoda initiated that particular battle.  That's not even a "position," it's literally just what happened in the films.

As a side note, obviously the viewer and the Jedi know the Sith are up to no good...but that rush to action over careful and deliberated thought (which is what Yoda preached in the OT) is what doomed the Jedi.  Palpatine set a legal trap for the Jedi that they blundered into full force.  Morally, the Jedi had an imperative to pursue Palpatine in accordance with Republic law.  Would that have served them better?  Probably not, given Palpatine would have likely planned for it.  It's hard to imagine things going much worse, though.

You can be both a mentor and a stabby warrior, you know.   I think Yoda can be seen in a variety of categories since the films cover a fairly long (and rather turbulent) time period in Yoda's life.  However, you can't deny that whenever Yoda gets into a fight, he doesn't rely on the Force as his primary ability.  He lights his lightsaber and goes to town, rather aggressively at that.  We only see him ditch the lightsaber after the events of Revenge of the Sith, and that may well mark his full transition to Consular.  It's difficult to tell, however, because Yoda is never forced to fight in the OT and thus we don't know what his methods would have been.  And I think we're better off not knowing, because fighting was something Prequel Yoda did and excelled at.  OT Yoda was a font of wisdom.

 

So, yeah.  The only absurd position here is yours: that people's opinions or what literally happened in the films can be "wrong."

Yoda uses whatever works, just like any Jedi. Whether it's diplomacy, the Force, his lightsaber, whatever gets the job done. That does not make him a Guardian. And given that you can't transition from one career to another, Yoda can only have one career, and it is not Guardian. It is Consular. That is what his primary focus is and has always been

2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

I don't remember this...? It's been stated a couple times that Yoda went there to kill Sidious, which would make him an assassin, but Windu went there to arrest the dude. He was definitely willing to kill him, and eventually almost did so.

Who said Windu's group went there as assassins?

He absolutely did. In cinematic terms and in pretend-game-terms. Whether it was Fated Duel, a Force power used to get rid of the Royal guards, or whatnot, Yoda came there with the express intent to end the guy's life. At the point where Sidious tried to escape, Yoda cut off his escape with his lightsaber drawn. Yoda was the initiator.

 

What was the context of this one? I have proposed that Yoda could be started as as a PC with the Guardian career, which is not the same thing as a "stabby warrior." 

Exactly, Mace Windu went to arrest Palpatine and resorted to lethal force as a last option because he felt Palkpatine was too dangerous to live (he was right in this regard, but that's besides the point). Yoda did go there it kill Palpatine, but that still does not make him an "assassin". An Assassin uses stealth and subterfuge to eliminate his target. Yoda went right through the front door to confront Palpatine directly in a "fair fight". 

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Yoda uses whatever works, just like any Jedi. Whether it's diplomacy, the Force, his lightsaber, whatever gets the job done. That does not make him a Consular. And given that you can't transition from one career to another, Yoda can only have one career, and it is Guardian. It is not  Consular. That is what his primary focus is and has always been

;-)

Now outside of how arbitrary your statements are, it is interesting that you completely focus on what he does and not why he does it. The core of your being is not your job, not the stuff you own, but your desires, your motivations are at the core of your heart. And Yoda as definitely and most certainly giving his preference of protecting others  prevalence over his desire of the will of the force and mediation. We have given you mainly examples for that, I have even posted videos were yoda speaks about his (flawed) motivations. 

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What a hideous drain you all are on this community.

Taking threads (this is what, at least the 3rd one recently? involving the same ppl) concerning issues that could potentially, genuinely help many ppl who come to this forum for help and turning them into unreadable pissing matches.

Dont fees the trolls ppl!

Internet 101

Edited by emsquared

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1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yoda uses whatever works, just like any Jedi. Whether it's diplomacy, the Force, his lightsaber, whatever gets the job done. That does not make him a Consular. And given that you can't transition from one career to another, Yoda can only have one career, and it is Guardian. It is not  Consular. That is what his primary focus is and has always been

;-)

Now outside of how arbitrary your statements are, it is interesting that you completely focus on what he does and not why he does it. The core of your being is not your job, not the stuff you own, but your desires, your motivations are at the core of your heart. And Yoda as definitely and most certainly giving his preference of protecting others  prevalence over his desire of the will of the force and mediation. We have given you mainly examples for that, I have even posted videos were yoda speaks about his (flawed) motivations. 

Actually, if you watch the movies, Yoda tends to focus more on understanding the Force, teaching,  and diplomacy. That is what he prefers doing. That is his motivation, not fighting. His desires are peace and understanding the Force. Protecting others is just a part of the Job, and and even then, it's not even his primary job. If you really pay attention to pretty much every scene Yoda is in, in every movie he is in, he is always spouting some bit of wisdom, some sage advice or hidden truth, even when facing off against enemies in the middle of combat. That is because that is where his heart is; not in combat, but in wisdom. When he is leading those troops on Toydaria, even in the midst of combat, he uses that combat to teach the clones about the nature of life and their place in the Force. That is where his focus is, not combat. His focus and motivation is in understanding the mysteries of the Force. 

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5 minutes ago, emsquared said:

What a hideous drain you all are on this community.

Taking threads (this is what, at least the 3rd one recently? involving the same ppl) concerning issues that could potentially, genuinely help many ppl who come to this forum for help and turning them into unreadable pissing matches.

Dont fees the trolls ppl!

Internet 101

It's a discussion forum.  People come to discuss.  And 99% of the time, the discussion is easy-going and polite.  But when you add in someone who thinks their views, opinions, and personal interpretations are always 100% right all the time even in the face of loads of opposing evidence, it leads to a lot of disharmony. All you can do is report any troll posts you see.

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I don't think Yoda initiated the fight with Sidious.  If you take the immediate encounter as the most important factor then sure - he initiated the conflict.  And that seems to be what most are arguing.  But in context Sidious has just wiped out the Jedi Order and created an Empire (at which point it was also obvious to Yoda that the Clone Wars was orchestrated by Sidious to bring about the Empire and destroy the Jedi).  Sidious created the conflict, which had many engagements, and Yoda confronting Sidious was one of those engagements.  But Yoda didn't start it.  I don't think Yoda should get Conflict for taking out the Royal Guards - they were part of the conflict too.  I don't think Luke gained 1 million Conflict for killing all those people on the Death Star (including all the subcontractors plumbing toilets and installing HVAC).

I compare it to a hostage situation.  Black Sun takes a bunch of hostages, kills a few to show they mean business, and makes demands...a Jedi sneaks in to where they are being held and "preemptively" takes out the sentries and engages in a lightsaber battle with the other hostage takers.  Is this Jedi an "assassin"?  I'd say no.  Is he initiating the fight?  Again, I'd say no.  This is a scenario where there is not reason to expect diplomacy to work (except as a stalling or distracting tactic).

If I was a GM in either the Yoda/Sidious scenario or a hostage situation I wouldn't hand out Conflict for jumping right in to a fight.  If I was a PC in either of these cases and the GM gave my character a little Conflict I wouldn't complain either.

I agree with awayputurpwn - Windu and company were there to arrest Sidious, but prepared to kill him if needed.

Now, I think the case could be made that Yoda was training Luke to assassinate Vader and Sidious...=)

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