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A little bit of Conflict for hurting people with the Force?

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12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Consular career is specifically drawn from and patterned after the Jedi Consular of old.  

Well that's an overstatement, but I agree that they share the same name and have many similarities. But so what, you're saying that all "Jedi Consulars of old" automatically get lumped into the Consular career? 

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The only real difference is the lack of formal training in the Jedi arts during the Rebellion era.   

That's not at all what the FaD CRB says. I can understand how one could infer that, but I prefer a more open interpretation as to how roles are viewed through game-mechanical Careers. 

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I've been into Star Wars since I saw  ANH  at the drive-in in 1977, when it was still known only as Star Wars.  

Hey, we both liked Star Wars since we were kids! My first viewing of the movie came well after Lucas got to call the movie what he wanted to call it, so I am envious of your original experience!

22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda is most certainly a Consular, in particular, I'd classify him as a Consular: Teacher, Ascetic, Sage, with Araru Striker as an OoC spec.  

I'm glad you are certain. I'm just as certain that, were he being written up as a high-level PC, I'd start him out as Guardian in this system, owing to how we see him act in all the established sources. I'm also certain that stats of established characters are completely open to interpretation, so...in my opinion, your opinion is fine, too.

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2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Well that's an overstatement, but I agree that they share the same name and have many similarities. But so what, you're saying that all "Jedi Consulars of old" automatically get lumped into the Consular career? 

That's not at all what the FaD CRB says. I can understand how one could infer that, but I prefer a more open interpretation as to how roles are viewed through game-mechanical Careers. 

Hey, we both liked Star Wars since we were kids! My first viewing of the movie came well after Lucas got to call the movie what he wanted to call it, so I am envious of your original experience!

I'm glad you are certain. I'm just as certain that, were he being written up as a high-level PC, I'd start him out as Guardian in this system, owing to how we see him act in all the established sources. I'm also certain that stats of established characters are completely open to interpretation, so...in my opinion, your opinion is fine, too.

Let me hit each point:

1. Yes, I would place all Jedi Consulars in the Consular Career path. Now, that does not mean that they wouldn't branch out into other careers' specializations. But, yes, all Jedi Consulars would start with the Consular career. 

2. Each of the careers are specifically established in the books to be essentially descended (be it literal or "spiritual") from their Jedi counterparts. This is particularly spelled out in the various career books. In fact, if you read each of the books, the very first section of each deals specifically with the Jedi origins of each of these careers

3. What can I say, I'm an old coot. 

4. Yep, very certain. And this is based upon how he is depicted in all of the movies, going way back of ESB, as well as his stats and specifications from his many iterations from the various incarnations of the RPG. To be clear, Yoda was the very archetype used to originally design the Jedi Consular class/career. He was what the Consular was based upon. 

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Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Do you mean what Specialization would he have started with? I would say, most likely Sage, then Ateru Striker, Teacher, Ascetic. in that order. 

Where are you getting this information from?  What sources?

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19 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Where are you getting this information from?  What sources?

Primarily speculation but based upon what we see in the movies and his history, which is why I said "most likely". Yoda is definitely more "cerebral", more focused on contemplation of the Force, hence starting with Sage. He is skilled with the lightsaber, and specifically, the more acrobatic style of Ateru, (which is more suited to his small stature), and a style he would have learned relatively early on. By age 100 (according to Wookieepedia), he became a Jedi Master and began taking on students, hence the Teacher spec. And, finally, with his exile on Dagobah, he spent decades in solitude of an Ascetic. Though it could be argued he would have taken that spec far earlier (given his more ascetic sensibilities even in the prequels) and thus maybe even branched out into the Hermit spec during his exile. 

 

One of the key factors as to why Yoda would be a Consular (aside from him being the very template for the career in the first place) is the fact that first and foremost, he rarely draws his lightsaber and spends most of his time contemplating the Force and dealing with more diplomatic and instructive pursuits. His interests lie more in study, learning, and teaching than in combat. Yes, he is skilled with a lightsaber, but that is more due to his centuries of experience than any focus on the lightsaber as a career path. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Primarily speculation

Good to know.

See, that's the thing: all of us are just speculating here.  There's nothing from Yoda's early years in canon that gives us anything to go on.  It's certainly a valid interpretation to say that Yoda started as a Consular and has always been one, but it's far from the only valid interpretation.  People change vastly just over the course of 20 years, imagine how much Yoda might have changed over 800!  Yoda could very well have started as a Guardian of some sort before shifting over to more Consular-related studies in his middle or later years.  Especially when you consider that even 20 years before the OT he was quite handy with a lightsaber, something more associated with Guardians than Consulars.

Quote

Yoda is definitely more "cerebral", more focused on contemplation of the Force, hence starting with Sage. He is skilled with the lightsaber, and specifically, the more acrobatic style of Ateru, (which is more suited to his small stature), and a style he would have learned relatively early on. By age 100 (according to Wookieepedia), he became a Jedi Master and began taking on students, hence the Teacher spec. And, finally, with his exile on Dagobah, he spent decades in solitude of an Ascetic. Though it could be argued he would have taken that spec far earlier (given his more ascetic sensibilities even in the prequels) and thus maybe even branched out into the Hermit spec during his exile. 

One of the key factors as to why Yoda would be a Consular (aside from him being the very template for the career in the first place) is the fact that first and foremost, he rarely draws his lightsaber and spends most of his time contemplating the Force and dealing with more diplomatic and instructive pursuits. His interests lie more in study, learning, and teaching than in combat. Yes, he is skilled with a lightsaber, but that is more due to his centuries of experience than any focus on the lightsaber as a career path.

All of this deals with Yoda at 900, not Yoda at 100 (or 50, or 20).  Yoda would have taken his first specialization before any of what you said occurred.  So, why does it mean that Yoda was "most likely" always a Consular?

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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I would like to think that Yoda arrived at his more enlightened philosophical state by overcoming his own flaws and mistakes. You know, I'd prefer his character to have grown over his many centuries rather than just popped out as a fully fledged enlightened Jedi. Its all daydreaming and speculation but I'd love to see a young Yoda being impulsive and quick to draw his lightsaber, only to arrive at his enlightened philosophical state by overcoming his own character flaws and learning from his own mistakes. 900 years is a long, long time.

Edited by ghatt

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5 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Good to know.

See, that's the thing: all of us are just speculating here.  There's nothing from Yoda's early years in canon that gives us anything to go on.  It's certainly a valid interpretation to say that Yoda started as a Consular and has always been one, but it's far from the only valid interpretation.  People change vastly just over the course of 20 years, imagine how much Yoda might have changed over 800!  Yoda could very well have started as a Guardian of some sort before shifting over to more Consular-related studies in his middle or later years.  Especially when you consider that even 20 years before the OT he was quite handy with a lightsaber, something more associated with Guardians than Consulars.

All of this deals with Yoda at 900, not Yoda at 100 (or 50, or 20).  Yoda would have taken his first specialization before any of what you said occurred.  So, why is it relevant?

Simple. Since we're constrained by the game rules here (and thus our"builds" of the canonical characters are too, for RPG purposes), Yoda can only have one career, though his specs most certainly would change as time goes on, even taking out of career specs. Thus, as  the very archetype from which the whole Consular career is based upon, he would need to start with a Consular spec, and the most appropriate one, given what we know about him would be Sage, or maybe Ascetic with Sage as the later spec (though I prefer Ascetic to be last). Then an out of career spec for his lightsaber spec, because he has been canonically established to use the Ateru style. Then, once he becomes a Master, and spends most of his time training students (apparently, he trained over 20,000 Jedi to knighthood), this puts the new Teacher spec as most appropriate. Finally, his ascetic tendencies and eventual exile after Oder 66, leading to the Ascetic and possibly Hermit specs. 

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All of that doesn't explain why Yoda HAS to start with that career, however.  It's very possible to, within the game mechanics, start as one career but end up following a very different path.  A Gunslinger might end up taking Force-Sensitive Exile and only taking pure FaD careers afterwards, essentially rising to become a Consular after taking every Consular spec.  Would that make him less of a Consular, just for that?

You're caught in the same trap a lot of new and inexperienced players get into: thinking that mechanics are the be-all end-all of what your character is.  They think they have to take a Smuggler spec to smuggle things, or a Bounty Hunter spec to pick up a little extra cash for a prisoner they took on that last mission.  In truth, however, that's far from the case: your career is defined less by what's written in the box on your character sheet, and more by how you act.

Anyone's starting career is just that: the career they started in.  It only has as much importance as the player chooses to give it.  Signature Moves are not what makes Yoda a Consular.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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11 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I would like to think that Yoda arrived at his more enlightened philosophical state by overcoming his own flaws and mistakes. You know, I'd prefer his character to have grown over his many centuries rather than just popped out as a fully fledged enlightened Jedi. Its all daydreaming and speculation but I'd love to see a young Yoda being impulsive and quick to draw his lightsaber, only to arrive at his enlightened philosophical state by overcoming his own character flaws and learning from his own mistakes. 900 years is a long, long time.

It makes for much more interesting and well-rounded characters, that's for certain.

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14 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

All of that doesn't explain why Yoda HAS to start with that career, however.  It's very possible to, within the game mechanics, start as one career but end up following a very different path.  A Gunslinger might end up taking Force-Sensitive Exile and only taking pure FaD careers afterwards, essentially rising to become a Consular after taking every Consular spec.  Would that make him less of a Consular, just for that?

You're caught in the same trap a lot of new and inexperienced players get into: thinking that mechanics are the be-all end-all of what your character is.  They think they have to take a Smuggler spec to smuggle things, or a Bounty Hunter spec to pick up a little extra cash for a prisoner they took on that last mission.  In truth, however, that's far from the case: your career is defined less by what's written in the box on your character sheet, and more by how you act.

Anyone's starting career is just that: the career they started in.  It only has as much importance as the player chooses to give it.  Signature Moves are not what makes Yoda a Consular.

The career a character takes is not just what they start out as, it's also what they are at their core being. This is at least how the rules explain it and thus why you are only allowed one Career. And Yoda is the quintessential Consular. As I said, he was what the Consular career is based upon. Thus, it only makes sense that he has to have the Consular career. And, specifically in Yoda's case, the only spec which he has to have which doesn't logically fit into the Consular career is his lightsaber spec, Ateru Striker. Everything else about him fits within the various Consular Specs, not the Guardian career. 

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Who someone is at their core being can change over time.  The rules hold people to one career because a campaign isn't expected to run over the course of 40 years (or 900, as the case may be).  The game is focused around the Galactic Civil war era, and is generally designed with the assumption that campaigns will take place within the few years that make up this time frame.

Basically, saying that Yoda couldn't have been a Guardian because the books say your starting career is your core career is like saying that Yoda couldn't be a Jedi because the books state the FaD careers are specifically not Jedi.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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48 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

 People change vastly just over the course of 20 years,

Heck, Yoda changed vastly over the course of 20 years, from the beginning in the clone wars to his death. In quite interesting ways actually, because he seems like a guardian at his core during the clone wars. He sure is a instructor for a long time, he sure knows a lot of stuff, but his whole core, his singular desire is to protect and preserve. UNTIL he visits the force planet and goes into exile, from that point on his core seems to have shifted, just like his fear did vanished. Before that? He seems like a wisemen who still jumps into a war like a fool, because he can't help it. He knows better, but it is in his nature to be a protector and guardian of the republic and his fellow Jedi, who he holds all very dear as all of them once were his pupils. 

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9 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Who someone is at their core being can change over time.  The rules hold people to one career because a campaign isn't expected to run over the course of 40 years (or 900, as the case may be).  The game is focused around the Galactic Civil war era, and is generally designed with the assumption that campaigns will take place within the few years that make up this time frame.

Basically, saying that Yoda couldn't have been a Guardian because the books say your starting career is your core career is like saying that Yoda couldn't be a Jedi because the books state the FaD careers are specifically not Jedi.

The game can be set in any time frame from the days of the ancient Old Republic, through the prequels, into the Rebellion era, and on through the new movie era. It's not limited to the rebellion era. Most of the RPGs have started with the Rebellion era since that is the most familiar (though D20's OCRB was built starting with the prequels). Regardless, Yoda is what the Consular career is based upon, therefore, it is only logical to for him to have that as his career. 

4 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Also, let's not forget that the Careers and Specializations aren't 1 for 1 - like Dooku is most certainly a Makashi Duelist at creation, but he is certainly not a Mystic. 

Why not? He's certainly flamboyant enough. I could certainly see him as Mystic: Makashi Duelist/Adviser, with a few other undetermined specs. 

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Heck, Yoda changed vastly over the course of 20 years, from the beginning in the clone wars to his death. In quite interesting ways actually, because he seems like a guardian at his core during the clone wars. He sure is a instructor for a long time, he sure knows a lot of stuff, but his whole core, his singular desire is to protect and preserve. UNTIL he visits the force planet and goes into exile, from that point on his core seems to have shifted, just like his fear did vanished. Before that? He seems like a wisemen who still jumps into a war like a fool, because he can't help it. He knows better, but it is in his nature to be a protector and guardian of the republic and his fellow Jedi, who he holds all very dear as all of them once were his pupils. 

He does not seem like a Guardian at his core during the Clone Wars. Far from it. Just because he had to lead troops does not make him a Guardian. Sure, you might theoretically give him one Guardian Specialization from that war, but that does not make him a Guardian as his base career. Throughout most of the Prequels, he was a Teacher, a Sage, an Adviser, an Ascetic in terms of his character. He was the one all of the other Jedi turned to for advice, knowledge, and wisdom. At his heart, he is one who seeks communion with the Force, who seeks understanding of its mysteries. He is not a combat oriented character at heart. He is a contemplative character at heart. That is what makes him a Consular. 

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8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 Regardless, Yoda is what the Consular career is based upon, therefore, it is only logical to for him to have that as his career. 

You're missing the point:  The Jedi Consular career does not exist in the books.  If we go by what that books say, Yoda cannot exist because the specializations needed don't exist.  You can't interpret RAW literally one way and figuratively the next.  Either your starting career is your core identity forever and the Consular Career does not represent the Jedi Consular career, OR the game careers and specializations can be interpreted broadly, as can how your core identity changes over time.  You can't have it both ways.

Also, keep in mind that in the Prequels, we see Yoda as a lightsaber instructor.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He is not a combat oriented character at heart

Yet in literally half the movies we see him in, he uses his lightsaber in combat.  That's a higher rate than Luke.  In fact he uses his lightsaber every time we see him fight!  That is very much like a Guardian.

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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Further, the names aren't actually indicative of what the character actually is or how they would describe themselves. My Guardian isn't like "I AM A GUARDIAN!" when he's introducing who he is and what he is.

Sure, maybe in EotE and AoR it's a little more cut-and-dry, but FaD is certainly not that way. 

Also, nevermind that Guardian/Consular/Sentinel aren't even canon. I think the only one who has any sort of canon equivalent is Guardian with Warrior Master.

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2 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Guardians can certainly be contemplative at heart. 

He can be those things and still be a Guardian. 

Again, this is all speculation and how we see the characters.

But he isn't a Guardian. What makes you think he would be? As I said, just because he was essentially forced to lead troops, through Palpatine's manipulations, does not make him a Guardian. All it might do is suggest he took one Guardian Specialization. But it does not make him a Guardian. The Consular Career was based upon Yoda, just as the D20 Jedi Consular class was based upon him. Therefore, logically, he would have that as his Career. The main thing Yoda is known for, above all else is his wisdom and knowledge in the Force. Yes, he is skilled with a lightsaber, but that is tertiary to his wisdom and knowledge of the Force. It is not what he is most famous for. Those are the hallmarks of the Consular career: seekers of knowledge and wisdom. That is Yoda in a nutshell. 

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14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He does not seem like a Guardian at his core during the Clone Wars. Far from it. Just because he had to lead troops does not make him a Guardian. Sure, you might theoretically give him one Guardian Specialization from that war, but that does not make him a Guardian as his base career. Throughout most of the Prequels, he was a Teacher, a Sage, an Adviser, an Ascetic in terms of his character. He was the one all of the other Jedi turned to for advice, knowledge, and wisdom. At his heart, he is one who seeks communion with the Force, who seeks understanding of its mysteries. He is not a combat oriented character at heart. He is a contemplative character at heart. That is what makes him a Consular. 

I am not talking about leading his troops, I was not even thinking about his troops. I was thinking about protecting the jedi and the republic. Ordering the jedi to fight to protect and serve the republic in a war the jedi did not even needed to be involved. They could have stayed out of the issue of separation from the republic. They could have taken Mandalore's stance with ease. He could have let the clones fight this war on their own. 

Instead, out of fear of losing friends and out of duty to protect the republic and its citizen he choosed to go to war. He made basically this decision for the jedi. And it was a turning point in his career when he realized that was the wrong decision and that this decision destroyed everything he worked for the last 900 years. 

Marks btw ironically the change in Yoda to make him into the person you want him to be. It just a very recent change ;-)

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6 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

You're missing the point:  The Jedi Consular career does not exist in the books.  If we go by what that books say, Yoda cannot exist because the specializations needed don't exist.  You can't interpret RAW literally one way and figuratively the next.  Either your starting career is your core identity forever and the Consular Career does not represent the Jedi Consular career, OR the game careers and specializations can be interpreted broadly, as can how your core identity changes over time.  You can't have it both ways.

Also, keep in mind that in the Prequels, we see Yoda as a lightsaber instructor.

Yet in literally half the movies we see him in, he uses his lightsaber in combat.  That's a higher rate than Luke.  In fact he uses his lightsaber every time we see him fight!  That is very much like a Guardian.

We see Yoda in two Lightsaber duels. That does not make him a Guardian. Secondly, As I pointed out earlier, and as established in the various F&D career books, each of the Careers in F&D is directly descended from the Jedi The Consular has its origins from the Jedi Consulars. The Guardian has its origins from the Jedi Guardians. The Seekers, from the Jedi Seekers of the Jedi Explorer Corps, the Sentinels from the Jedi Sentinels, etc. Each and every one of them have their origins with the Jedi. The player characters in the time of the Rebellion era are taking careers which directly descend from these groups, whether literally, by being taught by a survivor of Oder 66, or in spirit through natural inclination. Therefore, these Careers do include the Jedi sects of old, and if you run a game in that era, these careers absolutely do represent these different types of Jedi. 

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Further, the names aren't actually indicative of what the character actually is or how they would describe themselves. My Guardian isn't like "I AM A GUARDIAN!" when he's introducing who he is and what he is.

Sure, maybe in EotE and AoR it's a little more cut-and-dry, but FaD is certainly not that way. 

Also, nevermind that Guardian/Consular/Sentinel aren't even canon. I think the only one who has any sort of canon equivalent is Guardian with Warrior Master.

I have to disagree. Even in canon we do see different Jedi with specific "skill sets" and mindsets; Jedi who are geared towards one path more than another. Yoda is definitely more of a sage type, a wise, seeker and dispenser of wisdom and knowledge. Mace Windu, by contrast, is a warrior at heart. 

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2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I have to disagree. Even in canon we do see different Jedi with specific "skill sets" and mindsets; Jedi who are geared towards one path more than another. Yoda is definitely more of a sage type, a wise, seeker and dispenser of wisdom and knowledge. Mace Windu, by contrast, is a warrior at heart. 

Okay, but how does that make the Jedi Guardian, Jedi Consular, and Jedi Sentinel terms canon? We never hear anyone in canon referred to as such, and there's no mention of them in canon sources. No one is like "I am a Jedi Guardian, with the Peacekeeper specialty!" or "I am a Jedi Sentinel with the Watchman specialty!"

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